Is Germany prosecuting 90-year-olds for its collective fail?

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Mootoo
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17 Jun 2016, 6:33 pm

Somehow it's always those over 90 they go after... what happened in the past 60 years when they also had an opportunity to prosecute even more of the 'Nazi machine'? If a nation wants to correct its past and somehow learn from it why can it not approach the subject sensibly and blame the very system itself, if that was what appointed Hitler? No, instead they ban almost the mention of the Nazi, as they're suddenly Voldemort, and somehow that memoriae damnatio will prevent any future corruption of the system or the concept of Neo-Nazism that somehow is invisible if no one whispers it. And go after 90 year olds that they collectively somehow didn't prosecute since 1945.



naturalplastic
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17 Jun 2016, 6:41 pm

Mootoo wrote:
Somehow it's always those over 90 they go after... what happened in the past 60 years when they also had an opportunity to prosecute even more of the 'Nazi machine'? If a nation wants to correct its past and somehow learn from it why can it not approach the subject sensibly and blame the very system itself, if that was what appointed Hitler? No, instead they ban almost the mention of the Nazi, as they're suddenly Voldemort, and somehow that memoriae damnatio will prevent any future corruption of the system or the concept of Neo-Nazism that somehow is invisible if no one whispers it. And go after 90 year olds that they collectively somehow didn't prosecute since 1945.


This post makes absolutely zero sense.

Germany was defeated truncated and occupied by the allies at the end of WWII. The Germans essentially didnt even govern their own country for a few years after war -much less hunt Nazis. The allies did all of the Nazi hunting at first. But then in the Fifties West Germany joined in prosecuting whatever Nazi war criminals were tracked down.

Any Nazi war criminal still at large today would have to be in his nineties. HELLO the war was 70 years ago. So ofcourse they are going to go after 90 year olds.



BaalChatzaf
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17 Jun 2016, 7:36 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Mootoo wrote:
Somehow it's always those over 90 they go after... what happened in the past 60 years when they also had an opportunity to prosecute even more of the 'Nazi machine'? If a nation wants to correct its past and somehow learn from it why can it not approach the subject sensibly and blame the very system itself, if that was what appointed Hitler? No, instead they ban almost the mention of the Nazi, as they're suddenly Voldemort, and somehow that memoriae damnatio will prevent any future corruption of the system or the concept of Neo-Nazism that somehow is invisible if no one whispers it. And go after 90 year olds that they collectively somehow didn't prosecute since 1945.


This post makes absolutely zero sense.

Germany was defeated truncated and occupied by the allies at the end of WWII. The Germans essentially didnt even govern their own country for a few years after war -much less hunt Nazis. The allies did all of the Nazi hunting at first. But then in the Fifties West Germany joined in prosecuting whatever Nazi war criminals were tracked down.

Any Nazi war criminal still at large today would have to be in his nineties. HELLO the war was 70 years ago. So ofcourse they are going to go after 90 year olds.


Even so, the government of West Germany was rather generous with its "de-natzification" policies after the allies ceased to run its government. West Germany was run by West Germans from 1965 on. A great many of the participants in the Nazi government manage not to be arrested and charged with war crimes and many of them prospered quite well. It was worse in East Germany. Many of the thugs in the East German government were ex nazi war criminals. The Stasi -- the government police- was well staffed with ex-nazis who knew all about repressive government and police interegations. Ve haff vays of making you talk, nicht wahr???


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shlaifu
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17 Jun 2016, 7:53 pm

Plus, may I add after having gone to a German highschool: we ruminate the Nazis until really every single kid knows: this is not a subject for jokes.

This is maybe what you consider "nit talking about it"- we rarely call our politicians "worse than hitler"- because we learned that is just very, very hard to achieve.

We carefully, quietly hang some german flags from the window when it's world cup season. But put them down afterwards, to show that we meant to support the footba team, but not the idea of pride in a god-given national identity.

And yes, part of dealing with our history is still putting concentration camp guards on trial. For everyone including ourselves to see: this happened.


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Kraichgauer
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17 Jun 2016, 7:55 pm

I wouldn't accuse today's Germans of any kind of "collective fail," as this generation has nothing to do with the actions of their grandfathers and great grandfathers.


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18 Jun 2016, 2:09 pm

Actually, our 'de-nazification' was really little more than a sham. Operation paperclip saved a lot of real life nazis, and nazi war criminals, and rewarded them with American citizenship as well.

Meanwhile back in Deutschland, we needed Germans who could administrate Germany on a local level from beaurocrats, to civil servants, and police. Because the Nazi party was very thourough in it's administration of it's government, one had to be a member of the NSDAP to have a career in government. civil service, or the police. --Care to take a guess as to who administered Germany for nearly all of the Allied occupation?

That being said, it seems to be excessive to spend money prosecute 90 year old pensioners, and then spend even more cash to keep them in a prison geriatric unit, which is essentially a retirement home with bars on the windows anyways. --Why not just shut their pension packages off?

On another note, Germany today is not the Germany of the 60's, 70's and 80's. The world views of the people are differant than they were then. In the past, Germany had very good reason to ban nazi symbols, and symbolism. Germany has moved on since then. Why not let the neo-nazis do their stuff out in the open with all of their nazi symbols? It would let people know full well who they are dealing with, and also allow the neo's to be scorned publicly.


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ZenDen
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19 Jun 2016, 2:33 pm

Fogman wrote:
Actually, our 'de-nazification' was really little more than a sham. Operation paperclip saved a lot of real life nazis, and nazi war criminals, and rewarded them with American citizenship as well.

Meanwhile back in Deutschland, we needed Germans who could administrate Germany on a local level from beaurocrats, to civil servants, and police. Because the Nazi party was very thourough in it's administration of it's government, one had to be a member of the NSDAP to have a career in government. civil service, or the police. --Care to take a guess as to who administered Germany for nearly all of the Allied occupation?

That being said, it seems to be excessive to spend money prosecute 90 year old pensioners, and then spend even more cash to keep them in a prison geriatric unit, which is essentially a retirement home with bars on the windows anyways. --Why not just shut their pension packages off?

On another note, Germany today is not the Germany of the 60's, 70's and 80's. The world views of the people are differant than they were then. In the past, Germany had very good reason to ban nazi symbols, and symbolism. Germany has moved on since then. Why not let the neo-nazis do their stuff out in the open with all of their nazi symbols? It would let people know full well who they are dealing with, and also allow the neo's to be scorned publicly.


you asked "Why not let the neo-nazis do their stuff out in the open with all of their nazi symbols?"
And, from an earlier post:

Quote:
="shlaifu"]And yes, part of dealing with our history is still putting concentration camp guards on trial. For everyone including ourselves to see: this happened."


I must believe someone "on the ground" will know better than outsiders what is best. Right wingers are not to be allowed to make themselves look bigger/stronger to attract the young (remember how that turned out the last time?).



Fogman
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19 Jun 2016, 2:52 pm

ZenDen wrote:

I must believe someone "on the ground" will know better than outsiders what is best. Right wingers are not to be allowed to make themselves look bigger/stronger to attract the young (remember how that turned out the last time?).


On the first sentence I agree. Still though, If the the German education system is as effective in educating people as to the dangers of fascism and nazism, then allowing the right wingers to do their thing openly wouldn't pose much of a threat due to the fact that people would know what they the represent, and act accordingly by not joining them, or sprning them outright.


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underwater
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19 Jun 2016, 3:12 pm

Fogman wrote:
ZenDen wrote:

I must believe someone "on the ground" will know better than outsiders what is best. Right wingers are not to be allowed to make themselves look bigger/stronger to attract the young (remember how that turned out the last time?).


On the first sentence I agree. Still though, If the the German education system is as effective in educating people as to the dangers of fascism and nazism, then allowing the right wingers to do their thing openly wouldn't pose much of a threat due to the fact that people would know what they the represent, and act accordingly by not joining them, or sprning them outright.


I think you underestimate how much fear a small number of extremists are capable of producing, and what kind of dynamic it starts.


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