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L_Holmes
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11 Jul 2016, 8:05 pm

EbenCooke wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There is still quite a bit of systemic racism, only it's more subtle than it used to be. We still have black neighborhoods, Hispanic neighborhoods, etc. The NYC schools are still pretty segregated.

The so-called white schools tend to have students who perform much better than black/Hispanic schools. It's not completely the fault of the students who attend those schools.

Conditions for non-white people on the whole, are much better than they were in the 1950's. However, much work needs to be done. By both the society and by the members of the minority groups.

I agree that Political Correctness frequently goes too far. However, in my life, where I encounter many female lawyers/judges, I don't encounter too many SJW-type opinions. The people who are Feminists have had their Feminism tempered by life experience. They might have held SJW-type opinions in college/university but, under the influence of life experience, these opinions have been modified, for the most part.

That's not systemic racism. There's nothing in the system that prevents black people from going to better schools or moving to better neighborhoods. Therefore, the reason for the disparities must be something other than systemic racism.

I've already acknowledged these disparities still exist, and pointed out that assuming all of it is just from systemic racism is a massive oversimplification of the real problems, which are complicated.

And as far as what you've shared about who you've personally encountered, that's anecdotal. You are one person, so unless you've met everyone in America, you can't say you know the extent of the problem based on your own experience.

I agree that systemic racism has been eliminated, for the most part. So what? That was fairly recently. Do you think you can keep your foot on a flower for 400 years, and then when you remove that foot it will spring to life as if no one had ever stepped on it? Slavery, followed by Jim Crow laws, followed by mass migration, followed by redlining which created the ghettos. Then, in the 70's, redlining, the last bit of systemic racism, is removed, and you think that means a completely even playing field has been created?

What do you want? Improvement, or to complain throughout eternity? When the slaves were freed they were 100% in poverty. Now? It's 25 percent. 75% of African Americans have risen above the poverty line, with no help from the Jim Crow crowd or the redliners. Poor people are expensive and disruptive. Anyone with any sense would want to help them achieve self sufficiency. The fact that we don't know how to do it doesn't mean it isn't worth trying. Why disparage those who try? Of course they'll fail before they succeed. Name me a human endeavor which didn't fail before it succeeded. A rocket crashes and you want to junk the space program? A "never say try" attitude didn't build this country or anything else in this world. Why demean those who try to solve a problem, unless you hate African Americans and want them to continue to fail?

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I don't want improvement. All I'm saying is, the way to improve is not to try to eliminate something which has already been eliminated. I'm not saying don't do anything to help the black community. But in an SJW's mind, systemic racism is still very widespread, and black people are constantly being oppressed by white people. It's a complete lie.


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kraftiekortie
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11 Jul 2016, 9:32 pm

It has NOT been eliminated. Only mostly eliminated.

It's like cancer. If we let it fester, it will grow again.



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11 Jul 2016, 9:37 pm

L_Holmes wrote:
EbenCooke wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There is still quite a bit of systemic racism, only it's more subtle than it used to be. We still have black neighborhoods, Hispanic neighborhoods, etc. The NYC schools are still pretty segregated.

The so-called white schools tend to have students who perform much better than black/Hispanic schools. It's not completely the fault of the students who attend those schools.

Conditions for non-white people on the whole, are much better than they were in the 1950's. However, much work needs to be done. By both the society and by the members of the minority groups.

I agree that Political Correctness frequently goes too far. However, in my life, where I encounter many female lawyers/judges, I don't encounter too many SJW-type opinions. The people who are Feminists have had their Feminism tempered by life experience. They might have held SJW-type opinions in college/university but, under the influence of life experience, these opinions have been modified, for the most part.

That's not systemic racism. There's nothing in the system that prevents black people from going to better schools or moving to better neighborhoods. Therefore, the reason for the disparities must be something other than systemic racism.

I've already acknowledged these disparities still exist, and pointed out that assuming all of it is just from systemic racism is a massive oversimplification of the real problems, which are complicated.

And as far as what you've shared about who you've personally encountered, that's anecdotal. You are one person, so unless you've met everyone in America, you can't say you know the extent of the problem based on your own experience.

I agree that systemic racism has been eliminated, for the most part. So what? That was fairly recently. Do you think you can keep your foot on a flower for 400 years, and then when you remove that foot it will spring to life as if no one had ever stepped on it? Slavery, followed by Jim Crow laws, followed by mass migration, followed by redlining which created the ghettos. Then, in the 70's, redlining, the last bit of systemic racism, is removed, and you think that means a completely even playing field has been created?

What do you want? Improvement, or to complain throughout eternity? When the slaves were freed they were 100% in poverty. Now? It's 25 percent. 75% of African Americans have risen above the poverty line, with no help from the Jim Crow crowd or the redliners. Poor people are expensive and disruptive. Anyone with any sense would want to help them achieve self sufficiency. The fact that we don't know how to do it doesn't mean it isn't worth trying. Why disparage those who try? Of course they'll fail before they succeed. Name me a human endeavor which didn't fail before it succeeded. A rocket crashes and you want to junk the space program? A "never say try" attitude didn't build this country or anything else in this world. Why demean those who try to solve a problem, unless you hate African Americans and want them to continue to fail?

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I don't want improvement. All I'm saying is, the way to improve is not to try to eliminate something which has already been eliminated. I'm not saying don't do anything to help the black community. But in an SJW's mind, systemic racism is still very widespread, and black people are constantly being oppressed by white people. It's a complete lie.

So far all I've heard from you is disparagement of people who are trying to do something. What do you want to try?



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11 Jul 2016, 10:39 pm

EbenCooke wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
EbenCooke wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There is still quite a bit of systemic racism, only it's more subtle than it used to be. We still have black neighborhoods, Hispanic neighborhoods, etc. The NYC schools are still pretty segregated.

The so-called white schools tend to have students who perform much better than black/Hispanic schools. It's not completely the fault of the students who attend those schools.

Conditions for non-white people on the whole, are much better than they were in the 1950's. However, much work needs to be done. By both the society and by the members of the minority groups.

I agree that Political Correctness frequently goes too far. However, in my life, where I encounter many female lawyers/judges, I don't encounter too many SJW-type opinions. The people who are Feminists have had their Feminism tempered by life experience. They might have held SJW-type opinions in college/university but, under the influence of life experience, these opinions have been modified, for the most part.

That's not systemic racism. There's nothing in the system that prevents black people from going to better schools or moving to better neighborhoods. Therefore, the reason for the disparities must be something other than systemic racism.

I've already acknowledged these disparities still exist, and pointed out that assuming all of it is just from systemic racism is a massive oversimplification of the real problems, which are complicated.

And as far as what you've shared about who you've personally encountered, that's anecdotal. You are one person, so unless you've met everyone in America, you can't say you know the extent of the problem based on your own experience.

I agree that systemic racism has been eliminated, for the most part. So what? That was fairly recently. Do you think you can keep your foot on a flower for 400 years, and then when you remove that foot it will spring to life as if no one had ever stepped on it? Slavery, followed by Jim Crow laws, followed by mass migration, followed by redlining which created the ghettos. Then, in the 70's, redlining, the last bit of systemic racism, is removed, and you think that means a completely even playing field has been created?

What do you want? Improvement, or to complain throughout eternity? When the slaves were freed they were 100% in poverty. Now? It's 25 percent. 75% of African Americans have risen above the poverty line, with no help from the Jim Crow crowd or the redliners. Poor people are expensive and disruptive. Anyone with any sense would want to help them achieve self sufficiency. The fact that we don't know how to do it doesn't mean it isn't worth trying. Why disparage those who try? Of course they'll fail before they succeed. Name me a human endeavor which didn't fail before it succeeded. A rocket crashes and you want to junk the space program? A "never say try" attitude didn't build this country or anything else in this world. Why demean those who try to solve a problem, unless you hate African Americans and want them to continue to fail?

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I don't want improvement. All I'm saying is, the way to improve is not to try to eliminate something which has already been eliminated. I'm not saying don't do anything to help the black community. But in an SJW's mind, systemic racism is still very widespread, and black people are constantly being oppressed by white people. It's a complete lie.

So far all I've heard from you is disparagement of people who are trying to do something. What do you want to try?

I want to try not censoring opinions that we don't agree with. I want to try not making up lies about the nature of the issues we face. I want to try not f*****g rioting and murdering people in the streets. Why is that so hard to understand?

I think what we need to do is legalize drugs and end the discrimination against poor people in this country. It's discrimination based on class, not race. There are a lot of things involved in that, but one of them is not widespread systemic racism. I'd like to point out that not a single person has actually given me an example of true systemic racism that currently exists in America. So maybe it does exist, but unless you have proof why should I believe that? If it really is there you should be able to provide evidence.


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L_Holmes
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11 Jul 2016, 11:16 pm

Even if you can find an example, I'm sure it will be nowhere near the level that Black Lives Matter claims. They are claiming that the police are all racists, that black people are unable to achieve anything in America because of white oppression, ridiculous things like that. And they're using these BS reasons to justify bullying, censorship, harassment, assault, rioting, and now murder.

"Oh, but it's ok, because they're black! They're doing it for a good cause; at least they're trying."

No. They are a racist hate group that has graduated to committing acts of terrorism. They are only serving to destroy social justice, from the inside out.

Edit: I feel like maybe I haven't made myself clear, so to explain my thoughts I will use that analogy of crushing a flower, because I think that actually is a good analogy.

So for a long time in this country, the boot of systemic racism has been crushing the flower, representative of blacks and other minorities. But at long last, the boot has been removed. In that situation, does it make more sense to just get angry and seek revenge, or does it make more sense to start nurturing the damaged flower and planting new seeds?

What Black Lives Matter is doing is the equivalent of trying to get rid of all boots and people who wear them by any means possible, all the while neglecting the flower.


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EbenCooke
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12 Jul 2016, 2:27 pm

L_Holmes wrote:
EbenCooke wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
EbenCooke wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There is still quite a bit of systemic racism, only it's more subtle than it used to be. We still have black neighborhoods, Hispanic neighborhoods, etc. The NYC schools are still pretty segregated.

The so-called white schools tend to have students who perform much better than black/Hispanic schools. It's not completely the fault of the students who attend those schools.

Conditions for non-white people on the whole, are much better than they were in the 1950's. However, much work needs to be done. By both the society and by the members of the minority groups.

I agree that Political Correctness frequently goes too far. However, in my life, where I encounter many female lawyers/judges, I don't encounter too many SJW-type opinions. The people who are Feminists have had their Feminism tempered by life experience. They might have held SJW-type opinions in college/university but, under the influence of life experience, these opinions have been modified, for the most part.

That's not systemic racism. There's nothing in the system that prevents black people from going to better schools or moving to better neighborhoods. Therefore, the reason for the disparities must be something other than systemic racism.

I've already acknowledged these disparities still exist, and pointed out that assuming all of it is just from systemic racism is a massive oversimplification of the real problems, which are complicated.

And as far as what you've shared about who you've personally encountered, that's anecdotal. You are one person, so unless you've met everyone in America, you can't say you know the extent of the problem based on your own experience.

I agree that systemic racism has been eliminated, for the most part. So what? That was fairly recently. Do you think you can keep your foot on a flower for 400 years, and then when you remove that foot it will spring to life as if no one had ever stepped on it? Slavery, followed by Jim Crow laws, followed by mass migration, followed by redlining which created the ghettos. Then, in the 70's, redlining, the last bit of systemic racism, is removed, and you think that means a completely even playing field has been created?

What do you want? Improvement, or to complain throughout eternity? When the slaves were freed they were 100% in poverty. Now? It's 25 percent. 75% of African Americans have risen above the poverty line, with no help from the Jim Crow crowd or the redliners. Poor people are expensive and disruptive. Anyone with any sense would want to help them achieve self sufficiency. The fact that we don't know how to do it doesn't mean it isn't worth trying. Why disparage those who try? Of course they'll fail before they succeed. Name me a human endeavor which didn't fail before it succeeded. A rocket crashes and you want to junk the space program? A "never say try" attitude didn't build this country or anything else in this world. Why demean those who try to solve a problem, unless you hate African Americans and want them to continue to fail?

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I don't want improvement. All I'm saying is, the way to improve is not to try to eliminate something which has already been eliminated. I'm not saying don't do anything to help the black community. But in an SJW's mind, systemic racism is still very widespread, and black people are constantly being oppressed by white people. It's a complete lie.

So far all I've heard from you is disparagement of people who are trying to do something. What do you want to try?

I want to try not censoring opinions that we don't agree with. I want to try not making up lies about the nature of the issues we face. I want to try not f*****g rioting and murdering people in the streets. Why is that so hard to understand?

I think what we need to do is legalize drugs and end the discrimination against poor people in this country. It's discrimination based on class, not race. There are a lot of things involved in that, but one of them is not widespread systemic racism. I'd like to point out that not a single person has actually given me an example of true systemic racism that currently exists in America. So maybe it does exist, but unless you have proof why should I believe that? If it really is there you should be able to provide evidence.

I've already stated that I believe systemic racism ended in the USA in the 1970's, with the end of redlining (though the practice still exists, of course). Systemic racism is a red herring. Why concentrate on that?

Quote:
I want to try not censoring opinions that we don't agree with. I want to try not making up lies about the nature of the issues we face. I want to try not f*****g rioting and murdering people in the streets. Why is that so hard to understand?

Well, go ahead. I don't see how you, or any individual, can do these things. The problem is easily stated. Self reliance. 75% of the African American population has achieved some measure of self reliance. The problem are the 25% who have not. The 25 percent who were left behind after white flight and black flight created the "permanent underclass" in our inner city neighborhoods. The ones who remain in that trap are incapable of self reliance. Education is useless, believe me, I know. I spent years pretending to teach in such neighborhoods.

What I will never, in a million years, understand, is how people who have had the benefit of good parenting don't understand the destructive power of poor parenting. Good parenting = birthright. People born without it have no chance. This is the only thing that matters. Solve this, and the problem is solved.

http://www.naeyc.org/tyc/article/the-word-gap



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12 Jul 2016, 3:05 pm

L_Holmes wrote:
Even if you can find an example, I'm sure it will be nowhere near the level that Black Lives Matter claims. They are claiming that the police are all racists, that black people are unable to achieve anything in America because of white oppression, ridiculous things like that. And they're using these BS reasons to justify bullying, censorship, harassment, assault, rioting, and now murder.

"Oh, but it's ok, because they're black! They're doing it for a good cause; at least they're trying."

No. They are a racist hate group that has graduated to committing acts of terrorism. They are only serving to destroy social justice, from the inside out.

Edit: I feel like maybe I haven't made myself clear, so to explain my thoughts I will use that analogy of crushing a flower, because I think that actually is a good analogy.

So for a long time in this country, the boot of systemic racism has been crushing the flower, representative of blacks and other minorities. But at long last, the boot has been removed. In that situation, does it make more sense to just get angry and seek revenge, or does it make more sense to start nurturing the damaged flower and planting new seeds?

What Black Lives Matter is doing is the equivalent of trying to get rid of all boots and people who wear them by any means possible, all the while neglecting the flower.

That's quite a nice (really f****d up) strawman you've created there!



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12 Jul 2016, 4:56 pm

The only reason I am talking about systemic racism is because people, like SJWs, keep saying it's still prominent in America when it's not. It's completely relevant to this discussion, which is about SJWs and their bad ideas, so it's not a red herring.

AspE, how is it a strawman? BLM doesn't do s**t for the black community. They could be focusing on ending gang violence and raising money to help people in black communities, all sorts of good things that could really use attention. But instead they choose to do protests against the police and the government for being racist, which is simply not true. If anyone's creating a strawman it's them.

I find it really ironic that I'm actually supportive of helping the black community, but just because I disagree with the beliefs and actions of one black activist group, a lot of people on here treat me as though I'm racist or as though I have really extreme views. There are plenty of black people who agree with me on this, but that doesn't fit the narrative of BLM, so those rational people are simply ignored.


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kraftiekortie
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12 Jul 2016, 6:03 pm

I don't really care for Black Lives Matter, either.

But there's still racism going on. On all sides--white, black, brown, red, etc.

I'm a person, by the way, who really doesn't care for SJW-type opinions.



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12 Jul 2016, 7:35 pm

L_Holmes wrote:
The only reason I am talking about systemic racism is because people, like SJWs, keep saying it's still prominent in America when it's not. It's completely relevant to this discussion, which is about SJWs and their bad ideas, so it's not a red herring.

AspE, how is it a strawman? BLM doesn't do s**t for the black community. They could be focusing on ending gang violence and raising money to help people in black communities, all sorts of good things that could really use attention. But instead they choose to do protests against the police and the government for being racist, which is simply not true. If anyone's creating a strawman it's them.

I find it really ironic that I'm actually supportive of helping the black community, but just because I disagree with the beliefs and actions of one black activist group, a lot of people on here treat me as though I'm racist or as though I have really extreme views. There are plenty of black people who agree with me on this, but that doesn't fit the narrative of BLM, so those rational people are simply ignored.

Murder by police isn't just a problem in poor communities, it occurs at various rates regardless of the local crime rate. So I don't know why you are focusing on a completely separate issue.



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12 Jul 2016, 9:01 pm

AspE wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
The only reason I am talking about systemic racism is because people, like SJWs, keep saying it's still prominent in America when it's not. It's completely relevant to this discussion, which is about SJWs and their bad ideas, so it's not a red herring.

AspE, how is it a strawman? BLM doesn't do s**t for the black community. They could be focusing on ending gang violence and raising money to help people in black communities, all sorts of good things that could really use attention. But instead they choose to do protests against the police and the government for being racist, which is simply not true. If anyone's creating a strawman it's them.

I find it really ironic that I'm actually supportive of helping the black community, but just because I disagree with the beliefs and actions of one black activist group, a lot of people on here treat me as though I'm racist or as though I have really extreme views. There are plenty of black people who agree with me on this, but that doesn't fit the narrative of BLM, so those rational people are simply ignored.

Murder by police isn't just a problem in poor communities, it occurs at various rates regardless of the local crime rate. So I don't know why you are focusing on a completely separate issue.

I don't understand what you mean. I never said it only happens in poor communities. I'm just saying it's not a common occurrence, and it's even less common for it to be racially motivated.

More common than it should be, sure; the system even lets them get off easy many times, and I think that needs to be addressed. Police need to be accountable for what they do. But I think most police are good people, and groups like BLM, with all their talk of systemic racism and racist cops, bring a lot of hate to an entire group of people that don't deserve it.


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12 Jul 2016, 9:28 pm

Racially-oriented violence is very common in many cities.

I was the victim of it a few times when I was younger.

I was once surrounded by about five African-American people chanting "Howard Beach."

Howard Beach was where a black person was killed by a car on a highway after being chased there by a gang of white people.



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12 Jul 2016, 10:10 pm

L_Holmes wrote:
AspE wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
The only reason I am talking about systemic racism is because people, like SJWs, keep saying it's still prominent in America when it's not. It's completely relevant to this discussion, which is about SJWs and their bad ideas, so it's not a red herring.

AspE, how is it a strawman? BLM doesn't do s**t for the black community. They could be focusing on ending gang violence and raising money to help people in black communities, all sorts of good things that could really use attention. But instead they choose to do protests against the police and the government for being racist, which is simply not true. If anyone's creating a strawman it's them.

I find it really ironic that I'm actually supportive of helping the black community, but just because I disagree with the beliefs and actions of one black activist group, a lot of people on here treat me as though I'm racist or as though I have really extreme views. There are plenty of black people who agree with me on this, but that doesn't fit the narrative of BLM, so those rational people are simply ignored.

Murder by police isn't just a problem in poor communities, it occurs at various rates regardless of the local crime rate. So I don't know why you are focusing on a completely separate issue.

I don't understand what you mean. I never said it only happens in poor communities. I'm just saying it's not a common occurrence, and it's even less common for it to be racially motivated.

More common than it should be, sure; the system even lets them get off easy many times, and I think that needs to be addressed. Police need to be accountable for what they do. But I think most police are good people, and groups like BLM, with all their talk of systemic racism and racist cops, bring a lot of hate to an entire group of people that don't deserve it.

Boo hoo. Frank and open criticism of the police is vital to a free society. They aren't an ethnic minority or something, they are agents of state power.



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13 Jul 2016, 8:38 am

AspE wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
AspE wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
The only reason I am talking about systemic racism is because people, like SJWs, keep saying it's still prominent in America when it's not. It's completely relevant to this discussion, which is about SJWs and their bad ideas, so it's not a red herring.

AspE, how is it a strawman? BLM doesn't do s**t for the black community. They could be focusing on ending gang violence and raising money to help people in black communities, all sorts of good things that could really use attention. But instead they choose to do protests against the police and the government for being racist, which is simply not true. If anyone's creating a strawman it's them.

I find it really ironic that I'm actually supportive of helping the black community, but just because I disagree with the beliefs and actions of one black activist group, a lot of people on here treat me as though I'm racist or as though I have really extreme views. There are plenty of black people who agree with me on this, but that doesn't fit the narrative of BLM, so those rational people are simply ignored.

Murder by police isn't just a problem in poor communities, it occurs at various rates regardless of the local crime rate. So I don't know why you are focusing on a completely separate issue.

I don't understand what you mean. I never said it only happens in poor communities. I'm just saying it's not a common occurrence, and it's even less common for it to be racially motivated.

More common than it should be, sure; the system even lets them get off easy many times, and I think that needs to be addressed. Police need to be accountable for what they do. But I think most police are good people, and groups like BLM, with all their talk of systemic racism and racist cops, bring a lot of hate to an entire group of people that don't deserve it.

Boo hoo. Frank and open criticism of the police is vital to a free society. They aren't an ethnic minority or something, they are agents of state power.

Yeah, f**k those pigs! They're just agents of state power, not people!

They're definitely not individual people being used by a corrupt system. They're all just inherently bad people, right?

None of them joined the police force because they actually wanted to protect their community. They all had one sole purpose: OPPRESS THE BLACKS.

And surely, all of them that are treated disrespectfully, attacked or even killed by protesters are completely deserving of such treatment, right? Those racist pigs.

Black Lives Matter dehumanizes the police. They take their anger out on all of them, for the actions of a few.

Their problem should be with the system itself, not every person in it. They should be doing peaceful protests and activism to bring attention to real, specific problems within the system. They should be raising money for good causes in the black community, not using lies to manufacture outrage.

Yeah, boo hoo, I actually care about innocent police being treated poorly for reasons that are complete horses**t. I'm such a whiny crybaby. Nothing like that refined group of freethinkers and freedom-fighters known as social justice warriors. They NEVER get extremely emotional and out of control; they're always calm, collected and rational.

Right.

Anyway, you don't seem to care about any of that, but I'm genuinely glad you're playing devil's advocate for me. It's really helping me to clarify my ideas.


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13 Jul 2016, 8:42 am

I happen to like cops. I believe in them.

I work, indirectly, with law enforcement myself.

But facts are facts.



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13 Jul 2016, 8:52 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I happen to like cops. I believe in them.

I work, indirectly, with law enforcement myself.

But facts are facts.

Facts aren't facts. A "fact" is just an idea, a concept in the human brain.

And the facts are on my side in this case.


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