Page 1 of 1 [ 13 posts ] 

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

31 Oct 2016, 10:25 pm

No one like taxes but there's not much we can do about them. They are part of the human condition.

I don't like sales tax because I don't own property or make a lot of money but I do buy groceries, clothing, among other things requiring sales tax.

If I had a large house or three or four and land, and some commercial properties, I might prefer a higher sales tax to let's say a burdensomely high property tax. Same with taxes on income, investment earnings, inheretences, lottery winnings, etc.

So what do you all think? Is it better to have the higher sales tax and lower others, or a low sales tax and higher taxes everywhere else?



sly279
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 16,107
Location: US

31 Oct 2016, 11:19 pm

I like income tax Better cause I get the money back in April. Sales tax I wouldn't and it'd make most things cost too much for me and it's already expensive



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 23,689
Location: temperate zone

01 Nov 2016, 4:24 am

Economists have a word for taxes that hit the rich worse than the poor:"progressive", and a word for the opposite:"regressive" for taxes that hit the poor worse than the rich. Sales taxes tend to be regressive, and property taxes tend to be progressive. There are exceptions.

Like most folks I favor progressives taxes as a rule, and dont like regressive taxes.But it all depends: For example if you live in poverty stricken state you might want regressive taxes to lure capital into your state . . And there are ofc ourse other issues besides regressive vs progressive.

There are such things as "sin taxes" (not be confused with "syntax") on vices. The various both sales taxes, and excises taxes etc, on alcohol and cigarettes are examples. The government tying its cart to the unstoppable force the demand for vice (a good source of money, and to discourage vice, and to help pay for the bad effects of vice on society) . I enthusiastically support any tax on anything I personally dont use. So I love the taxes on tobacco! Lol!



LoveNotHate
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,195
Location: USA

01 Nov 2016, 6:37 am

I like high sales tax, because it's easy to avoid.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,051
Location: Reading, England

01 Nov 2016, 8:27 am

Income tax can cause poverty traps, but is generally progressive.
Corporation tax favours large businesses who can get out of it ahead of small ones.
VAT and sales taxes are regressive and discourage spending. So do progressive consumption taxes (although those might have their place if you really need more saving).
Property taxes squeeze out first-time buyers.
Poll taxes are regressive.
Jobs taxes (national insurance and similar mandatory programs) harm employment.
Sin taxes are regressive.
Inheritance tax is brilliant but everyone hates it and the rich are often good at avoiding it.

Personally I favour a Land Value Tax.

Advantages:

- It's progressive
- It's much harder to evade or avoid than income tax or corporation tax
- The value of land strongly relates to factors outside the owner's control, including government spending in the area. It makes sense that those who gain from government spending pay for it. It's the best method of value capture.
- It incentivises putting land to economic use rather than leaving it fallow (but doesn't, for example, encourage the destruction of parks - parks raise the value of surrounding land).
- Prevents property speculation - unoccupied houses are a liability.
- It doesn't disincentivise work

Disadvantages:

- Governments might not be good at determining the value of land
- It might not be able to raise large enough sums to finance a country
- Potentially gives another advantage to big internet companies... but hopefully the market corrects that by reducing the value of retail spaces

I'd aim to draw most revenue from LVT. I'd aim for my reforms to be revenue neutral. Inheritance tax would be increased but so would the threshold at which it kicks in and the first £1m from a primary property would be excluded. All other property taxes (council tax, stamp duty) would be abolished along with corporation tax, VAT, capital gains tax, and national insurance. I would keep sin taxes on alcohol, cigarettes, air travel, and fuel, and would introduce new ones on other recreational drugs (now legalised). Income tax would initially be given a hefty cut (raising all thresholds by £5,000 overnight?) and if LVT raised enough, I'd strip it right back so it only applied to the highest 10% of earners and at a fairly modest rate.



RetroGamer87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,487
Location: Adelaide, Australia

01 Nov 2016, 8:39 am

I hate sales tax because it disproporationately effects the poor. When you're poor, all of your money gets spent at the shops. When you're rich, much of your money gets invested. Only a small percentage of your money gets spent at a shop.

On the other hand I don't like ramping up the percentage of income tax with income. If I work longer hours, each hour I get paid less than the last because it gradually increased the percentage taxed.


_________________
The days are long, but the years are short


ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

01 Nov 2016, 10:02 am

I was just in the car and Glenn Beck radio show had a guest who talked about the national debt and how states with large populations soak up a lot of money from the Federal Government. What he suggested is each contribute the same percentage in money as the amount their population contributes to overall amount instead of a state with 3% of the US population consuming + 6% federal dollars every year. They would have to find a way to give back 3% rather than take 6%.
I didn't catch the guest's name but his idea sounds fairer than what happens now.



BTDT
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,620

01 Nov 2016, 10:21 am

Yes, sales taxes are harder on the poor than the rich. The rich have a number of ways of avoiding sales taxes--like buying stuff when they are visiting places with lower taxes. They can also wait until stuff goes on sale--the poor can't wait like the rich do. In some places they eliminate sales taxes on essentials like groceries and heating oil.



Uncle
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Apr 2015
Posts: 1,124

01 Nov 2016, 10:47 am

Hmmm , tax laws, dont get me started or you might not be able to stop me! Depending on your country, the tax laws arent always what you think they are. I wont go into detail, but if you do your research of common law v maritime law, read blacks law book, what birth certificates truly are, The strawman, etc etc etc and realise the terminology we use in every day conversation doesn't mean the same in a court etc etc... It just depends on whether or not you want to face intimidation when sticking to the 'LAW'..



Biscuitman
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Mar 2013
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,127
Location: Dunking jammy dodgers

01 Nov 2016, 12:20 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
No one like taxes but there's not much we can do about them


I like taxes. without them society would crumble. taxes pay for the maintenance of my local area, taxes pay for the police, ambulances & fire brigade. Taxes paid for the nurses who recently cared for my grandmother while she died. Taxes paid for all of my education and are paying for my daughters now. Taxes pay for the poorest in my country to get a fair start in life when they were handed a poor roll of the dice at birth.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

01 Nov 2016, 1:51 pm

Biscuitman wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
No one like taxes but there's not much we can do about them


I like taxes. without them society would crumble. taxes pay for the maintenance of my local area, taxes pay for the police, ambulances & fire brigade. Taxes paid for the nurses who recently cared for my grandmother while she died. Taxes paid for all of my education and are paying for my daughters now. Taxes pay for the poorest in my country to get a fair start in life when they were handed a poor roll of the dice at birth.


Okay so there's one person who likes them.



0_equals_true
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,038
Location: London

01 Nov 2016, 4:56 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Personally I favour a Land Value Tax.


Why do you think the Lib Dem's favoured Property Value Tax (Mansion) over Land Value Tax? Is this to do with he disadvantages. Some say Mansion tax will target those who property value has increased, yet they have not enough income to pay for it. While it will influence what properties that are built and foreign investors will find ways of avoiding it or may go elsewhere.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,051
Location: Reading, England

01 Nov 2016, 5:58 pm

Mansion tax was easier and had more political capital, I would guess.

It was abandoned during the last parliament in favour of (iirc) reforming council tax. Of course, Labour picked it up shortly afterwards...

There's a sizeable movement within the LDs to adapt LVT as party policy, but it's not large or supported by major figures. Labour will probably end up supporting it first, because Corbyn and McDonnell are supporters, but they'll probably aim to increase the tax burden.