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Adamantium
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28 Jan 2017, 1:51 pm

redrobin62 wrote:
I give a lot of props to you guys who continue to bandy words back and forth with the close-minded, medieval Trump contingent. I gave up days ago. All they were doing was leading me towards another stroke. I REFUSE to engage them in an argument that will go nowhere.
''

But this is really more of the US V THEM, tit-for-tat name calling that will lead to no productive discussion.

Nobody is going to respond well to the suggestion that they are "close-minded" or "medieval" so it's better just to leave that stuff out of it. The best way to refuse to engage in an argument that will go nowhere is to talk about something else that will go somewhere or simply not to engage at all. This kind of shot is being part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I think we all have to give up on any goal of converting people from awful THEM to wonderful US. No one is likely to change their basic views on any of these issues. The best we can hope for is hearing the most interesting ideas about real issues from people on both sides and neither side. Looking at these discussions as a competition that can be won is truly pointless.

I can think of something that Trump might possibly achieve that would be really great. The F-35 program is a huge mess and a staggering sinkhole in the budget. Almost inconceivably large amounts of money are flowing into it and people are attacking useful military spending to help ensure the F-35 continues to get the extreme levels of funding that have already gone to it. I wouldn't really mind if it was the technological marvel it was proclaimed to be when it first came out, but by all accounts, it's not. It's a jack-of-all-trades, master of none that has done poorly in test after test with critical components failing to deliver anything like the performance that was in the initial goals.

Trump has already expressed a willingness to radically rethink or cancel the program that has sent shockwaves through the defense procurement establishment and I think that's a very good thing. Can he save the nation this terrible program? I don't know. The interests that are arrayed against interference in the F-35 money train are immense and impressive. It just may be that Trump's anger and willingness to take big risks along with his relative independence from Party establishment will allow him to bring Lockheed Martin and the Pentagon back under control.

Secretary Mad Dog Mattis has already taken the first steps. If Trump succeeds in this, and takes step for a rational alternative roadmap for next generation fighter development, I will gladly give him credit for doing something to make American defense procurement great again.

I doubt it will happen, but it seems like something he might just do.


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kraftiekortie
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28 Jan 2017, 1:52 pm

Mexico had to react the way it did.

Trump is trying to thump down a business competitor. He'll do that with other nations.

The problem: nations aren't businesses, like humans aren't cars. International relations is a complex, nuanced thing like us humans, but unlike cars.



Adamantium
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28 Jan 2017, 2:57 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Mexico had to react the way it did.

Trump is trying to thump down a business competitor. He'll do that with other nations.

The problem: nations aren't businesses, like humans aren't cars. International relations is a complex, nuanced thing like us humans, but unlike cars.


I agree, Mexico had to respond as it did.

It will be interesting to see how quickly Trump learns from missteps like this.


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28 Jan 2017, 2:58 pm

Jacoby wrote:
The speculation about personality is just not something I am ever going to accept, perhaps to you it's simply an exercise in understanding but to me it has other implications. Pathologizing your political opponents has a long history and I think it hurts the general discourse, your understanding and what most people read into things won't be the same. Patrick Kennedy who is an outspoken advocate for the mentally ill and definitely not a Trump supporter has raised issue with this as well so it's not simply partisan armor.

As for the issues you mention; I think we've had some good discussions about the wall, the crowd size thing is an irrelevancy that nobody cares about.


The crowd size would be a lot less of an issue if Trump was not making such a big deal about it. As far as voting fraud I am sure it happened and probably has in every election. I do not find his obsessing over it rational. He and his party won. As far as judging his personality unlike his son where people are armchair diagnosing him based on a few videos we have had constant exposure to him for a year and a half. While that is not enough to diagnose him it is enough for me to be very concerned. I understand that all presidents probably have had significant narcissistic traits and that these traits have served many of them and Trump up until this point well. I just think these personlity traits have gotten strong enough to be potentially dangorous for the particular job he now holds. From what I see the man rivals many SJW's in the ease in which he gets offended.


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jrjones9933
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28 Jan 2017, 3:01 pm

Military procurement in general is a part of the government which I feel will work better if run like a business. It has money pits and sketchy contractors left and right.

Trump also said he would do infrastructure, which runs totally against the grain of my feelings about him. It's the best argument against what I think about him if he follows through, because infrastructure is as boring as it is crucial.


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Aspinator
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28 Jan 2017, 3:12 pm

It appears that Trump does not realize the US is a player on the world stage. He makes decisions thinking it will only affect the US and does not appear to be aware that other countries will make retaliatory decisions.



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28 Jan 2017, 3:16 pm

Aspinator wrote:
It appears that Trump does not realize the US is a player on the world stage. He makes decisions thinking it will only affect the US and does not appear to be aware that other countries will make retaliatory decisions.

The Muslim world is not amused, I think.



marshall
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28 Jan 2017, 3:17 pm

androbot01 wrote:
And Nurse, even if Obama did have sex with men and snort cocaine, of which there is no evidence, why is that a problem?

I don't think many liberals would have a huge issue with that unless he was doing it while he is in office.



androbot01
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28 Jan 2017, 3:21 pm

It would be great if the next president was openly gay.



marshall
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28 Jan 2017, 3:21 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Middle East Christians should be protected since they are being genocidedand this is happening across the board in almost every Muslim country they are in, the other simple truth is that these Christians don't pose a threat to the US whereas Sunni Muslims in that part of the world do. Their religious beliefs and the extremist ideologies they support are antithetical to Western values, even if its not a majority it's a significant enough percentage that some sort of new vetting process needs to be created in order to keep us safe. In the end I think these Christians also have a much better chance at assimilation than their Muslim counterparts, I don't think radical Islam is compatible with our way of life and thus I don't think it should be allowed to gain a foothold in the west. Those that sympathize and believe in the most extreme forms of Islam are not owed entry to the United States, religious freedom is not a free pass to barbarism.

The problem is he is not just banning radical Muslims. He's banning ALL Muslims from certain countries.



marshall
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28 Jan 2017, 3:23 pm

androbot01 wrote:
It would be great if the next president was openly gay.

I meant the snorting cocaine part.



jrjones9933
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28 Jan 2017, 3:30 pm

I've met people on cocaine, and in the very rare worst case scenario, reckless impulsivity seems like their MO. I don't want that in a president. So, I'm on the record that it's too much of a risk, and doing cocaine in office should be impeachable.


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redrobin62
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28 Jan 2017, 3:31 pm

@Adamantium - you're right. MY "close minded" and "medieval" shots were cheap and unwarranted. Here's a thought that, hopefully, shows you where I stand.

I'm a homeless, food stamp-receiving, immigrant black man with autism, bipolar disorder, PTSD, history of substance abuse disorder, chronic depression and anxiety. In other words, I'm basically a ticking time bomb.

Now, you come to someone like me and tell him, "Look, the new president doesn't really care for people like you. As a matter of fact, he may start sending federal troops to your neighbourhood to maintain the peace."

HOW am I supposed to behave when I feel like there's a target being drawn on my back?



androbot01
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28 Jan 2017, 3:35 pm

marshall wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
It would be great if the next president was openly gay.

I meant the snorting cocaine part.

I've been a stoner for years, but I've never tried cocaine. I don't know that I have a problem with it though. He does not seem to have been an addict at any rate.



marshall
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28 Jan 2017, 3:40 pm

androbot01 wrote:
marshall wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
It would be great if the next president was openly gay.

I meant the snorting cocaine part.

I've been a stoner for years, but I've never tried cocaine. I don't know that I have a problem with it though. He does not seem to have been an addict at any rate.

I don't think its a wise thing to experiment with powerfully addictive drugs. I just don't think I'd judge drug experimentation in the same level as something like sexual harassment or some other non-victimless activity.



beneficii
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28 Jan 2017, 3:42 pm

redrobin62 wrote:
@Adamantium - you're right. MY "close minded" and "medieval" shots were cheap and unwarranted. Here's a thought that, hopefully, shows you where I stand.

I'm a homeless, food stamp-receiving, immigrant black man with autism, bipolar disorder, PTSD, history of substance abuse disorder, chronic depression and anxiety. In other words, I'm basically a ticking time bomb.

Now, you come to someone like me and tell him, "Look, the new president doesn't really care for people like you. As a matter of fact, he may start sending federal troops to your neighbourhood to maintain the peace."

HOW am I supposed to behave when I feel like there's a target being drawn on my back?


Very good point. It's hard to take the detached "open-minded" approach when it's your own well-being on the line.


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