Can one be both conservative *and* tolerant?

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jrjones9933
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27 Feb 2017, 10:47 pm

Raptor wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
I am afraid to even criticize or disagree with someone who isn't a white, straight, cis-gender, Christian male out of fear of being called a bigot. That's worse than being accused of a violent crime.

Persecution fantasy, knitted together from right wing opinion media, and with no basis in real life.

Really??
I got accused of racism a few times IRL for not voting for Obama.

I expect grown people to disregard the opinions of idiots. Anyone who talked to you about politics for 2 minutes should have a basic sense of your position, which should settle it.

Now, if they accused you or racism based on why or how you said no, that's another matter. Sometimes, you come off here as kinda racist, as you may have noticed.

I don't know where you guys get the idea that being a racist will get you shunned. Many people, myself included, had racist-ass grandparents. Very few people shun them, and only a few even insist that they can't keep saying racist things and still see their grandchildren.


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Dox47
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28 Feb 2017, 1:23 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
I don't know where you guys get the idea that being a racist will get you shunned.


I think it's the torrents of "racists are the scum of the earth and should be shunned if not worse!" flowing from social media and liberal blogs that does it. In my case, it's also what I hear every day from the people around me, so yeah, it's a complete mystery where the idea comes from.


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Dox47
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28 Feb 2017, 1:25 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
Persecution fantasy, knitted together from right wing opinion media, and with no basis in real life.


I believe you call this "gas-lighting" when other people do it...


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jrjones9933
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28 Feb 2017, 2:23 am

Dox47 wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Persecution fantasy, knitted together from right wing opinion media, and with no basis in real life.


I believe you call this "gas-lighting" when other people do it...

Uh... you seriously believe Tim is quaking in his boots over disagreeing with someone?

Also, yes. Racists get as good as they give, but they aren't shunned with so much company around. Stereotype threat causes real harm, so you can't expect to go around harming people without getting harmed yourself. It just isn't nearly as unbalanced as people like to claim.


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Dox47
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28 Feb 2017, 2:52 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
Uh... you seriously believe Tim is quaking in his boots over disagreeing with someone?


You seriously think we're in a better position to tell him how he feels than he is?

jrjones9933 wrote:
Also, yes. Racists get as good as they give, but they aren't shunned with so much company around. Stereotype threat causes real harm, so you can't expect to go around harming people without getting harmed yourself. It just isn't nearly as unbalanced as people like to claim.


So, "I didn't do it, and also, he had it coming your honor"?

For someone who complains so much about people moving the goalposts and evading arguments, you do it an awful lot yourself. That's probably why no one really takes you too seriously.


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mr_bigmouth_502
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28 Feb 2017, 5:03 am

That depends. There's different types of conservatism, and some have absolutely nothing to do with race relations.


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looniverse
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28 Feb 2017, 12:23 pm

Is one supposed to construe tolerance in itself as a virtue?

Tolerance is tolerance. Tolerance is not approval. One can understand a thing without approving of it.

Many people just want to mind their own business without having to worry about every one else. Grandstanding about issues invoking tolerance interferes with people being able to mind their own business. See, when any vocal advocacy group makes its business everyone else's business, then no one is able to simply mind their own.

.
I could say more, but I think this commentator said it most articulately:

tolerance is not a virtue. It is a word that means very little and, in terms of moral principles, it means nothing. No person on Earth can be perfectly tolerant, nor should they. The value of tolerance depends completely on what is being tolerated and why. Things that are intolerable should not be tolerated. To tolerate the intolerable is to be a selfish coward. There’s nothing virtuous about it.

You might say that we should tolerate people, not ideas necessarily, and therein lies the virtue. But that’s nonsensical. What does it mean to tolerate a person? It means to simply put up with his existence. Well, yes, we should put up with each other’s existence because the only other option is homicide. Refraining from first degree murder is not a virtue, though. And besides, we shouldn’t just tolerate people, we should love them. Tolerating people requires nothing of us. Loving them, however, means willing their good. And, believe it or not, actively willing their good might even require a certain amount of intolerance.



jrjones9933
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28 Feb 2017, 1:01 pm

Dox47 wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Uh... you seriously believe Tim is quaking in his boots over disagreeing with someone?


You seriously think we're in a better position to tell him how he feels than he is?

jrjones9933 wrote:
Also, yes. Racists get as good as they give, but they aren't shunned with so much company around. Stereotype threat causes real harm, so you can't expect to go around harming people without getting harmed yourself. It just isn't nearly as unbalanced as people like to claim.


So, "I didn't do it, and also, he had it coming your honor"?

For someone who complains so much about people moving the goalposts and evading arguments, you do it an awful lot yourself. That's probably why no one really takes you too seriously.

I'm in a position to question the probability of those fears becoming a reality, yes. If he's really that afraid, it says more about his psychology than it does about reality.

I'm moving the goalposts? You keep misconstruing my positions. Racists face some problems, but they exaggerate or else they can't handle disapproval while dishing out condemnation. They will get banned from this forum if they're not clever, but that's about the worst case scenario unless they somehow become a Twitter sensation. Then, they might lose their job and their whole life. That risk is far less than the threat of random violence, and astronomically less than the risk of driving to work.

I think you have able to reply coherently mixed up with take seriously.


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jrjones9933
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28 Feb 2017, 1:05 pm

looniverse wrote:
Is one supposed to construe tolerance in itself as a virtue?

Tolerance is tolerance. Tolerance is not approval. One can understand a thing without approving of it.

Many people just want to mind their own business without having to worry about every one else. Grandstanding about issues invoking tolerance interferes with people being able to mind their own business. See, when any vocal advocacy group makes its business everyone else's business, then no one is able to simply mind their own.

.
I could say more, but I think this commentator said it most articulately:

tolerance is not a virtue. It is a word that means very little and, in terms of moral principles, it means nothing. No person on Earth can be perfectly tolerant, nor should they. The value of tolerance depends completely on what is being tolerated and why. Things that are intolerable should not be tolerated. To tolerate the intolerable is to be a selfish coward. There’s nothing virtuous about it.

You might say that we should tolerate people, not ideas necessarily, and therein lies the virtue. But that’s nonsensical. What does it mean to tolerate a person? It means to simply put up with his existence. Well, yes, we should put up with each other’s existence because the only other option is homicide. Refraining from first degree murder is not a virtue, though. And besides, we shouldn’t just tolerate people, we should love them. Tolerating people requires nothing of us. Loving them, however, means willing their good. And, believe it or not, actively willing their good might even require a certain amount of intolerance.

It sounds like a good argument for forcing people to do what you think best for them, regardless of their wishes. Do I have that right?


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jrjones9933
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28 Feb 2017, 1:07 pm

Raptor wrote:
Go back and find examples of me expressing a racist opinion here.
I double dog dare ya.

I find your comments about Germans deeply offensive. You imply a certain mindset and behavior based on ethnicity. That's racist by definition, even if in your mind you are expressing admiration.


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Darmok
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28 Feb 2017, 6:05 pm

Here's a story about intolerance/bigotry. I'll let you decide whether she's conservative or liberal:

Racist reporter has genetic test and discovers she is 68% black -- feels shame and disorientation:

"Of all the emotions which materialized from the results, the two strongest were disorient[ation] and shame. I thought the results would simply confirm what I was told by my family; instead they discredited their allegations."

http://thefederalistpapers.org/us/huffp ... mmediately


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28 Feb 2017, 10:56 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Go back and find examples of me expressing a racist opinion here.
I double dog dare ya.

I find your comments about Germans deeply offensive.

Tuff titty :P

Quote:
You imply a certain mindset and behavior based on ethnicity. That's racist by definition, even if in your mind you are expressing admiration.

Whatever, I've got plenty enough Germans (krauts, jerrys, huns, etc) in my family woodpile to say whatever I please about my own ethnic group. Would you be as deeply offended if I were black and used the N word?

Really, if this his the only thing you could come up with for an example of racism from me it speaks volumes in favor of me but not so much for you...
:roll:


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jrjones9933
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28 Feb 2017, 11:08 pm

It had the advantage of being on the previous page.

I'd feel pretty offended if you were black, but I'd fall back on structural racism, and it would be a solid fallback position.


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jrjones9933
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28 Feb 2017, 11:40 pm

Back to the original topic, restating my position for clarity:
It is possible to be conservative and tolerant to some extent, and it is possible to be liberal and intolerant to some extent. I laugh trying to imagine a completely intolerant or tolerant person.

Conservatives feel disgusted by more stimuli than liberals. They will never be as tolerant.


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Dox47
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02 Mar 2017, 5:15 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
I'm in a position to question the probability of those fears becoming a reality, yes. If he's really that afraid, it says more about his psychology than it does about reality.


Coming from the guy who thinks this site is a hotbed of paid Russian propagandists? I don't think you're in a position to comment accurately on your own reality, let alone those of other people.

jrjones9933 wrote:
I'm moving the goalposts? You keep misconstruing my positions.


By pointing out that they don't make sense?

jrjones9933 wrote:
Racists face some problems, but they exaggerate or else they can't handle disapproval while dishing out condemnation. They will get banned from this forum if they're not clever, but that's about the worst case scenario unless they somehow become a Twitter sensation. Then, they might lose their job and their whole life. That risk is far less than the threat of random violence, and astronomically less than the risk of driving to work.


So, getting banned from WP is the worst case scenario, unless social media finds out and they lose their whole life?
You can't even go a paragraph without contradicting yourself, the fact that you then complain that other people misconstrue you and can't react coherently is just icing on the cake.

jrjones9933 wrote:
I think you have able to reply coherently mixed up with take seriously.


Again, see above.


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jrjones9933
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02 Mar 2017, 8:36 am

If you misconstrue them, as you plainly have, then then don't seem to make sense. I can only conclude that you would have to accept the arguments as written if you didn't deliberately misread the plain meaning.


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