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Raptor
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13 Mar 2017, 5:42 pm

I'm really touched that RetroGamer87 has taken such an interest in us dumb 'Muricans, especially wen Australia doesnt account for diddlyshit in the minds of most Americans, especially not mine. It's just so thoughtful of him. :heart:

C'mon everybody, lets all join hands and sing. :flower:



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13 Mar 2017, 5:46 pm

Dox47 wrote:
I feel like it might be time to revive my gun control challenge, it's been a while since we culled this herd.


I don't know, it could be considered a micro-aggression or toxic with things being they way they are now.
Feelings are at stake here.
:shameonyou:


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14 Mar 2017, 9:22 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
I used to live in a higher crime neibhorhood. I was victim to a few crimes but as none of them involved guns none of them were potentially lethal.

So, you've never heard of someone killing someone else, with their bare hands----or, accidentally killing them, when they threw them down on the ground and they hit the side of their head on the steps----or, intentionally killing them, by bashing their head in, with a rock or brick?

True those things are very possible but why make it easy for them. Have you ever tried to kill someone without a gun? It's really hard.

It's pretty hard to kill someone with your bare hands and even cutting someone's throat takes a lot of force.


Depends on the circumstances. If you're taking your victim unaware, a quick stab through the carotid artery into the vocal cords would take relatively little force, and minimise the chance of them alerting anyone nearby.

Hypothetically, of course. This is purely informational and not at all advisory.
True but hypothetically this unaware victim wouldn't be any better off if he had a gun, if he gets taken unaware that is.

If an unarmed victim was aware of the stabber it would more difficult for the stabber to gain access to the victim's carotid artery. He could block. Even if his arm gets slashed that's more survivable than being stabbed through the carotid artery.

Of course neither one of us can no for certain. No one's ever attempted to murder me with a knife and it's very likely no one's ever attempted to murder you with a knife either.


At the risk of taking the discussion completely off the rails, I have indeed been attacked by someone wielding a knife with intent. I was fortunate in that it was a telegraphed frontal attack, I had access to an object with which to defend myself and that I was stronger, fitter and better trained than my assailant.

Had I weighed hundred pounds, been a foot shorter and had zero martial arts training I have no doubt it would have ended badly without the addition of an equaliser - a gun, for example.

A knife is a better tool for premeditated murder (assuming the goal is to get away with it), a firearm is a better tool for self-defence. There, I brought it back on track.



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14 Mar 2017, 1:49 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
If more people in that Colorado theatre would've had a gun, maybe that "Joker" guy wouldn't've been able to take out so many people
If only there had been some way to James Holmes from obtaining guns.

There was/IS----IIRC, he was a certified nutcake (had been seeing a psychiatrist), and it wasn't reported, or whatever should've been done.

This conversation has now gone in the direction that I feel it SHOULD go in----determining what is BEHIND why so many people get killed by guns, in this country. IMO, it's not about the implement chosen to kill someone (as I've already said, someone can kill somebody else with almost ANYTHING), it's about WHY someone would want to kill people!! How do these people who commit murder, BECOME such nutcakes??! ! Is it violent video games, violent TV/movies, absent parents, un-guiding parents, disorders, drugs, mis-use of prescriptions, poverty----or, what? THAT'S what I feel conversations / campaigns should be about, when there's gun violence!!

It's also something I wonder about.There were plenty of guns around when we were kids but nobody thought about shooting up the school.We even sang this song on the playground,SWAT would be called now.
"Glory,glory hallelujah,teacher hit me with a ruler,I met her at the door with a loaded .44,she ain't my teacher no more." Another verse involves meeting her at the bank with an army tank with the same results.The teachers never paid any attention when we sang this.Now the kid would be arrested,parents turned into social services,school in lock down.
When my kids were little, people pulled right up to the school door with a gun rack in the truck full of guns.No one batted an eye.Even some of the high school students had guns in their vehicles so they could go hunting after school.
We need to find out why people have these urges to kill their coworkers and other kids.Better mental health care would be the best option.
I think sometimes parents are too busy working too notice what's going on with kids.If I remember right,the Columbine shooters had bomb making material in their bedroom in plain veiw.No way a kid would have gotten away with that when I was little.Parents snooped,and they should.Dont worry about traumatizing the little dears by looking thru their room.It might save a life.
I'm not sure about the video games,if a kid is in a normal state of mind I think it's ok within limits.But maybe not the extreme realistic violent ones for some kids.Maybe they get the idea you regenerate after being shot.I think some rural kids have an advantage if they have a family that hunts.They know what happens when you point a gun at a living being and shoot,it's graveyard dead.They see what death is really like,it's not glamorous,not a music video,no soundtrack with cool music,it's messy, ugly and final.


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adifferentname
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14 Mar 2017, 7:44 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
How do these people who commit murder, BECOME such nutcakes??! !


According to some sources, the desire for fame is a common factor. The fame obsession is at its most extreme amongst the American youth.

Allow me to introduce you to Generation Special Snowflake (aka Generation Me Me Me!):

http://www.livescience.com/15018-tv-sho ... rtant.html

http://www.livescience.com/13879-song-l ... -rise.html

http://www.livescience.com/9918-today-c ... pathy.html

http://www.livescience.com/5743-nation-narcissists.html

Also, remember this?

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/opin ... o-him.html

Quote:
Is it violent video games, violent TV/movies, absent parents, un-guiding parents, disorders, drugs, mis-use of prescriptions, poverty----or, what? THAT'S what I feel conversations / campaigns should be about, when there's gun violence!!


It's likely a combination of several of those things in specific combinations, plus other social factors. It's probably safe to rule out video games and movies - after all, one would need to be severely delusional in the first place to be influenced to that extent by fiction - but everything else on your list has been a frequent factor in the backgrounds of mass shooters, as has that aforementioned desire for fame. They also tend to pick soft targets; places where guns are tightly controlled or outright banned.



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15 Mar 2017, 9:27 am

Misslizard wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
There was/IS----IIRC, he was a certified nutcake (had been seeing a psychiatrist), and it wasn't reported, or whatever should've been done.

This conversation has now gone in the direction that I feel it SHOULD go in----determining what is BEHIND why so many people get killed by guns, in this country. IMO, it's not about the implement chosen to kill someone (as I've already said, someone can kill somebody else with almost ANYTHING), it's about WHY someone would want to kill people!! How do these people who commit murder, BECOME such nutcakes??! ! Is it violent video games, violent TV/movies, absent parents, un-guiding parents, disorders, drugs, mis-use of prescriptions, poverty----or, what? THAT'S what I feel conversations / campaigns should be about, when there's gun violence!!

It's also something I wonder about.There were plenty of guns around when we were kids but nobody thought about shooting up the school.We even sang this song on the playground,SWAT would be called now.
"Glory,glory hallelujah,teacher hit me with a ruler,I met her at the door with a loaded .44,she ain't my teacher no more." Another verse involves meeting her at the bank with an army tank with the same results.The teachers never paid any attention when we sang this.Now the kid would be arrested,parents turned into social services,school in lock down.
When my kids were little, people pulled right up to the school door with a gun rack in the truck full of guns.No one batted an eye.Even some of the high school students had guns in their vehicles so they could go hunting after school.
We need to find out why people have these urges to kill their coworkers and other kids.Better mental health care would be the best option.
I think sometimes parents are too busy working too notice what's going on with kids.If I remember right,the Columbine shooters had bomb making material in their bedroom in plain veiw.No way a kid would have gotten away with that when I was little.Parents snooped,and they should.Dont worry about traumatizing the little dears by looking thru their room.It might save a life.
I'm not sure about the video games,if a kid is in a normal state of mind I think it's ok within limits.But maybe not the extreme realistic violent ones for some kids.Maybe they get the idea you regenerate after being shot.I think some rural kids have an advantage if they have a family that hunts.They know what happens when you point a gun at a living being and shoot,it's graveyard dead.They see what death is really like,it's not glamorous,not a music video,no soundtrack with cool music,it's messy, ugly and final.

In regard to guns being everywhere: Yeah, I've experienced the same thing----and, as I've said many times on here, I was given a gun as a present, when I was 12 (as were MOST kids, because it was a rite-of-passage, in those days); and, as you said nobody ever thought-about shootin'-up some place----nor, did they bat an eye, that kids / anybody had guns.

Yeah, I hate to admit it, but I blame alot of it on the parents, as well (as well as other things, I mean)----I don't recall hearing / reading about "bomb making material", in regard to the Columbine kids; but, I remember hearing about a long-gun lying on the top of one of 'em's bureau----like you said, "in plain view"----and, I can remember thinking "Where were the PARENTS----probably more worried about reaching that next rung, on the corporate ladder". (My aunt's best friend's son was dodging planes in the living room, and she [the friend] saw him bring-in a long-gun, and carry it upstairs to his bedroom. Now, why in God's name, would he have been allowed to do that? Sure-enough, when she went to work, one day, he went out in the backyard and blew his brains, out.)

Another thing is----like you were saying about kids not getting away with stuff----kids wouldn't have had any real reason to get so extremely angry, and then be isolated with their anger. If kids were acting-up, they may have gotten to do so, for about a minute----then, somebody would've put a foot up their rump (not literal). Also, if they were trying to isolate themselves, they wouldn't have been allowed that, EITHER (my being an Aspie, not being able to be alone, was a pain; but, luckily, I had a special interest that had a noisy element: sewing clothes----and, even THEN, if that sewing machine stopped for too long, my mother was hollerin' "What're you doin' in there?"). (Also, I don't wanna hear nothin' about single parents----as, *I* was raised by a single parent.)

As for looking-through their room: I TOTALLY agree!! Parents these days all seem to have the same mantra: "I want him (or her) to decide for himself"----I don't believe in that; I believe it's a parent's job to make a kid a person, FIRST; THEN, he can decide "stuff".

Yeah, I don't know about the violent video game (or movies / TV), either----to-this-DAY shoot-em-ups are one of my favorite movie genres; but, I had a family that was right there, explaining everything (like, trajectory and ballistics), and that it wasn't real, and so-forth.





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15 Mar 2017, 9:31 am

adifferentname wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
How do these people who commit murder, BECOME such nutcakes??! !

According to some sources, the desire for fame is a common factor. The fame obsession is at its most extreme amongst the American youth.

Allow me to introduce you to Generation Special Snowflake (aka Generation Me Me Me!):
...
Also, remember this?

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/opin ... o-him.html

Campin_Cat wrote:
Is it violent video games, violent TV/movies, absent parents, un-guiding parents, disorders, drugs, mis-use of prescriptions, poverty----or, what? THAT'S what I feel conversations / campaigns should be about, when there's gun violence!!

It's likely a combination of several of those things in specific combinations, plus other social factors. It's probably safe to rule out video games and movies - after all, one would need to be severely delusional in the first place to be influenced to that extent by fiction - but everything else on your list has been a frequent factor in the backgrounds of mass shooters, as has that aforementioned desire for fame. They also tend to pick soft targets; places where guns are tightly controlled or outright banned.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to read your links, right now----but, I copied and pasted them, as I'm ESPECIALLY interested in reading the ones about narcissism, as it has been a special interest of mine, for, about, a couple of years.

As for the fame obsession: Yeah, why is it everybody wants to BE somebody, instead of just "to be"? It's like your links----cuz everybody's a friggin' narcissist, nowadays, and they don't have enough esteem, or whatever, coming from WITHIN, to "make" (for lack of a better word) themselves into an upstanding citizen (or brother, son, daughter, friend, whatever), so they come-up with a scheme to make everybody tell them how wonderful they are; and, in THEIR mind, shooting-up places and reality shows, for instance, will help them attain that.

Yeah, as I said in my last post, I'm not totally sold on violent video games / movies / TV, ALONE, being a culprit----I'm thinking more like you said, that it's a combination of things.





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15 Mar 2017, 9:58 am

I have found it comes down to a simple human defect we all end up falling victim to. That is, when we want or desire something, we make every excuse we can to justify it. Even try to make it sound logical. But in the end we are just trying to justify a position we agree with, not trying to determine objectively if a gun is really necessary. In reality, if I was living in a place so dangerous I didn't feel safe without a gun, I would just move. Why would I want to live in an area like that?

I actually worry more for my safety when around some people carrying guns. I'm not talking about the ones who I know are responsible and have been properly trained to use and discern when the best time to use a weapon would be. I'm talking about the masses of people in the US who own guns but have never taken a class to learn to use them properly and seem perpetually on edge and excited for an opportunity to come up in which to use it. Those people are dangerous and can escalate a situation from just a robbery to a shoot out. Even if you are trained to operate a weapon it is knowing when and when not to use it that is also important.



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16 Mar 2017, 1:25 am

NotThatClever13 wrote:
Those people are dangerous and can escalate a situation from just a robbery to a shoot out. Even if you are trained to operate a weapon it is knowing when and when not to use it that is also important.


Do you have any evidence that this actually happens with any regularity? Excluding the police, of course, who I'm assuming you don't mind being armed. If not, maybe you should consider that you're also falling victim to attempting to justify a position you've already determined rather than actually investigating first.


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16 Mar 2017, 3:37 pm

Dox47 wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
Those people are dangerous and can escalate a situation from just a robbery to a shoot out. Even if you are trained to operate a weapon it is knowing when and when not to use it that is also important.


Do you have any evidence that this actually happens with any regularity? Excluding the police, of course, who I'm assuming you don't mind being armed. If not, maybe you should consider that you're also falling victim to attempting to justify a position you've already determined rather than actually investigating first.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gun-science-proves-arming-untrained-citizens-bad-idea/

Quote:
Consider a 1998 study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery that found that “every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.”

Pistol owners' fantasy of blowing away home-invading bad guys or street toughs holding up liquor stores is a myth debunked by the data showing that a gun is 22 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault, an accidental death or injury, a suicide attempt or a homicide than it is for self-defense.

I harbored this belief for the 20 years I owned a Ruger .357 Magnum with hollow-point bullets designed to shred the body of anyone who dared to break into my home, but when I learned about these statistics, I got rid of the gun.



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16 Mar 2017, 4:23 pm

Fugu wrote:
Consider a 1998 study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery that found that “every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

Pistol owners' fantasy of blowing away home-invading bad guys or street toughs holding up liquor stores is a myth debunked by the data showing that a gun is 22 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault, an accidental death or injury, a suicide attempt or a homicide than it is for self-defense.

WOW, a 19 year old study (2017 - 1998 =19). :roll:
Things must really be bad now after you liberals and your pet politicians have driven gun sales though the roof and created all those new gun owners. Wait, why arent the streets running red with blood as your antiquated article would have use believe if we were stupid????

Quote:
I harbored this belief for the 20 years I owned a Ruger .357 Magnum with hollow-point bullets designed to shred the body of anyone who dared to break into my home, but when I learned about these statistics, I got rid of the gun.

More like his old lady wanted him get rid of it and he knuckled under. Did he sell his balls with the gun?

Next... :roll:


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16 Mar 2017, 4:27 pm

Dox47 wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
Those people are dangerous and can escalate a situation from just a robbery to a shoot out. Even if you are trained to operate a weapon it is knowing when and when not to use it that is also important.


Do you have any evidence that this actually happens with any regularity? Excluding the police, of course, who I'm assuming you don't mind being armed. If not, maybe you should consider that you're also falling victim to attempting to justify a position you've already determined rather than actually investigating first.


I do not believe I have fallen victim since I have never been pro or anti gun. I just believe in sensible policy. Do you actually support the idea that people with no training or good sense should carry around weapons? Stuff like https://www.yahoo.com/news/gun-owner-tr ... 23017.html happens all the time, it just isn't reported nationally. If we would allow the government to fund a non-bias study on the issue we might get some conclusions. The problem is no one wants to do that, especially the pro gun side, because they are afraid the data won't support their talking points. I'm also reminded of this. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2558180 Is it responsible for a person to leave loaded guns around where children can easily get a hold of them? I would say no. Something like keeping such items out of reach of children is just good sense to me but obviously some people need training to tell them that. Kind of sad really.



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16 Mar 2017, 4:30 pm

Fugu wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
Those people are dangerous and can escalate a situation from just a robbery to a shoot out. Even if you are trained to operate a weapon it is knowing when and when not to use it that is also important.


Do you have any evidence that this actually happens with any regularity? Excluding the police, of course, who I'm assuming you don't mind being armed. If not, maybe you should consider that you're also falling victim to attempting to justify a position you've already determined rather than actually investigating first.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gun-science-proves-arming-untrained-citizens-bad-idea/

Quote:
Consider a 1998 study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery that found that “every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.”

Pistol owners' fantasy of blowing away home-invading bad guys or street toughs holding up liquor stores is a myth debunked by the data showing that a gun is 22 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault, an accidental death or injury, a suicide attempt or a homicide than it is for self-defense.

I harbored this belief for the 20 years I owned a Ruger .357 Magnum with hollow-point bullets designed to shred the body of anyone who dared to break into my home, but when I learned about these statistics, I got rid of the gun.


Thanks. We could have more recent studies if government was actually allowed to fund them.



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16 Mar 2017, 4:31 pm

Raptor wrote:
Fugu wrote:
Consider a 1998 study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery that found that “every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

Pistol owners' fantasy of blowing away home-invading bad guys or street toughs holding up liquor stores is a myth debunked by the data showing that a gun is 22 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault, an accidental death or injury, a suicide attempt or a homicide than it is for self-defense.

WOW, a 19 year old study (2017 - 1998 =19). :roll:
Things must really be bad now after you liberals and your pet politicians have driven gun sales though the roof and created all those new gun owners. Wait, why arent the streets running red with blood as your antiquated article would have use believe if we were stupid????
good point, science does become meaningless after 5 years after all.
here's another quote(from the same link) for the benefit of the slow:
Quote:
More insights can be found in a 2013 book from Johns Hopkins University Press entitled Reducing Gun Violence in America: Informing Policy with Evidence and Analysis, edited by Daniel W. Webster and Jon S. Vernick, both professors in health policy and management at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. In addition to the 31,672 people killed by guns in 2010, another 73,505 were treated in hospital emergency rooms for nonfatal bullet wounds, and 337,960 nonfatal violent crimes were committed with guns. Of those 31,672 dead, 61 percent were suicides, and the vast majority of the rest were homicides by people who knew one another.



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16 Mar 2017, 4:40 pm

Fugu wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Fugu wrote:
Consider a 1998 study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery that found that “every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

Pistol owners' fantasy of blowing away home-invading bad guys or street toughs holding up liquor stores is a myth debunked by the data showing that a gun is 22 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault, an accidental death or injury, a suicide attempt or a homicide than it is for self-defense.

WOW, a 19 year old study (2017 - 1998 =19). :roll:
Things must really be bad now after you liberals and your pet politicians have driven gun sales though the roof and created all those new gun owners. Wait, why arent the streets running red with blood as your antiquated article would have use believe if we were stupid????
good point, science does become meaningless after 5 years after all.
So statistics are now hard science?

Fugu wrote:
here's another quote for the benefit of the slow:

Quote:
More insights can be found in a 2013 book from Johns Hopkins University Press entitled Reducing Gun Violence in America: Informing Policy with Evidence and Analysis, edited by Daniel W. Webster and Jon S. Vernick, both professors in health policy and management at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. In addition to the 31,672 people killed by guns in 2010, another 73,505 were treated in hospital emergency rooms for nonfatal bullet wounds, and 337,960 nonfatal violent crimes were committed with guns. Of those 31,672 dead, 61 percent were suicides, and the vast majority of the rest were homicides by people who knew one another.

Misuse of statistics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_statistics


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16 Mar 2017, 4:49 pm

Raptor wrote:
So statistics are now hard science?
no, they're not 'now' hard science. they have always been science, so they can't become something they were already.
Quote:
Fugu wrote:
here's another quote for the benefit of the slow:

Quote:
More insights can be found in a 2013 book from Johns Hopkins University Press entitled Reducing Gun Violence in America: Informing Policy with Evidence and Analysis, edited by Daniel W. Webster and Jon S. Vernick, both professors in health policy and management at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. In addition to the 31,672 people killed by guns in 2010, another 73,505 were treated in hospital emergency rooms for nonfatal bullet wounds, and 337,960 nonfatal violent crimes were committed with guns. Of those 31,672 dead, 61 percent were suicides, and the vast majority of the rest were homicides by people who knew one another.

Misuse of statistics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_statistics
no real rebuttal, just some lukewarm complaint about how statistics can be misused. next...