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Raptor
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17 Mar 2017, 4:20 pm

Id almost forgotten what it's like to have a full time troll around...


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Fugu
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17 Mar 2017, 4:30 pm

Raptor wrote:
Id almost forgotten what it's like to have a full time troll around...
good thing that all you have to do to remind yourself of that feeling, is to look in a mirror...



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17 Mar 2017, 6:32 pm

Fugu wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
WOW, what a GIFT!!

Fugu wrote:
statistics can be skewed in a bunch of ways, especially when someone is cherrypicking data to prove a point.
http://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=284904&p=6613657#p6613657

LOLOLOL TOO funny!!
please point out where I'm cherrypicking.....

Nope, not gonna do it----cuz, anybody with even fair reading comprehension can see it, and won't need me to point it out.

Also, when going-through your post history, because there were so many people who correctly told you that you hadn't read their post properly, I lost count----so, I'm quite done with this part of the conversation / thread, with you.





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17 Mar 2017, 9:29 pm

I'm the anti-gun person gun people hate because I have shot them. A main argument from them seems to be that one does not get it because you have not been a part of it. No, I passed the safety test the first try without missing a single question and never studying (you don't need to if you want to own a gun). It's all common sense like "should you point a loaded gun at someone if you do not plan to shoot them?". The idea is for any barrier to guns to be as easy as possible since it's a "right". My time around gun owners showed me they are VERY afraid and VERY angry. They are always planning for a war or hypothetical situation where the gun would be needed. But I also learned you can not speak logically to them. Guns are ingrained in culture and to be an American you have to accept we are not like the rest of the world.

Europe might see the shootings we have here and wonder why the laws stay the same. First many gun owners do not believe the shootings are really happening. They say the goverment is making the story up so they can take guns. Second they blame "mental health". It's not the gun's fault it is the fault of a crazy person. But also there can be no laws to help stop this person from having a gun because it would make them unable to have a gun so it's just something Americans need to deal with. They will say do you blame the car or the drunk person who crashes it? Third they will say shootings happen because people who got shot did not also have a gun so it's the fault of people who do not own guns for not being able to protect themselves. They also love to highlight any crime committed with other weapons such as a knife because that proves that since many things can be used to harm guns should be allowed.

After each shooting the same debate happens over and over. All that really happens is more guns are purchased by a small number of Americans who think this particular shooting will cause guns to be illegal. This was MUCH worse under Obama since there were a lot of other racial issues these people brought into that. But with Trump there will always be paranoia. This might sound silly to Europe but these people repeat these things over and over. I don't think guns will ever be illegal in America. :cry:



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17 Mar 2017, 10:07 pm

Mr_Miner wrote:
All that really happens is more guns are purchased by a small number of Americans who think this particular shooting will cause guns to be illegal.

Small number? Maybe at one time but in the past 8 years it's been a helluva lot of people. The production and sales figures don't indicate just a few disgruntled existing gun owners. My gun club has more money than it knows what to do with from range fees from new shooters, not existing members. Hell, we've even used that money to buy more land to expand onto. The Obama administration along with other anti-gun politicians have created a windfall for the gun industry that would have been avoided if they had maintained a totally neutral stance on the subject.

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I don't think guns will ever be illegal in America. :cry:

You're right and even if they were there's always the black market. Illicit drugs have been illegal here for several decades and look at what good that's done. I can drive 5 miles from my house and buy all the meth I want with little to know risk of being busted. It's a joke.
Btw: All crying does to me is excite the wolf in me.


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18 Mar 2017, 4:00 am

NotThatClever13 wrote:
Sensible would be having dangerous weapons stored in a manner that children cannot easily access them. Sensible would be ensuring people carrying weapons around are trained in their use and proper storage to prevent accidents.


For the third time, do you actually have any support for this idea that untrained gun carriers are an actual problem? As in, beyond your opinion, which I've seen no reason to lend any special credence to.

NotThatClever13 wrote:
How do you know this if no one is allowed to study the issue?


Anyone is allowed to study the issue, many in fact do, they're just not allowed to use tax money to do it. Many states publish both the number of carry permits they have in circulation and the number of permits they've revoked for criminal misbehavior, it doesn't take a university study to compare those numbers and come up with a crime rate, or compare said crime rate to that of the police. The rarity of CCW holders shooting bystanders is also easily verified through simple Google, as in you won't find many examples, where as any other similarly sensational crime is covered quite extensively, and it's not like the news media has any great affection for legal carriers.

NotThatClever13 wrote:
Do you think anyone should be allowed to carry loaded guns around, even those with no knowledge in how to handle and use them?


As far as I'm concerned, anyone legally owning a gun should be allowed to carry it, otherwise you tend to get burdensome regulations imposed in order to make carry as expensive and inconvenient as possible, e.g. Chicago, where getting a carry permit requires training, but gun ranges are banned from city limits. Like I said, studies have shown that training requirements to get a carry permit make no difference to crime and accident rates, so there really is no justification for them, unless safety isn't your actual goal, as in Chicago. I have no formal training in shooting, just years at the range and such, and I've been carrying since I was 21 without issue, and I'm more the rule than the exception when it comes to legal carriers.

NotThatClever13 wrote:


Just like I could spend the day linking defensive shootings, but what would that prove? Those are also all accidents, not poorly trained gun owners shooting the wrong people, which is the assertion I challenged you to defend in the first place. If I wanted to know the accidental gun death rate I could just look it up, it's easily available, what I want you to show me is how often concealed carriers hit bystanders and such, since you seem to think that legally armed people turning robberies into shootouts is such a common occurrence.

NotThatClever13 wrote:
Then I'm sure you'd have no problem with finding an un-bias, non-partisan thrid party to conduct the study right? I'm truly interested in the unbiased facts so we can move forward with policy based on facts. You're in the privileged position of denying anyone the ability and funds to study an issue and then citing the fact there is no study to support their arguments.


I'm in no such position, unless you think it's impossible to do research without government money.

NotThatClever13 wrote:
So, someone storing kitchen knives under the couch cushions and under car seats would be a tragic accident too? No, it is not an accident when you can reasonably expect it to happen. Leaving loaded weapons all around the house and car is not responsible yet is far more common than it should be. http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/ab ... H.90.4.588 If you think leaving loaded guns within the reach of children is a "tragic accident" then I don't really know what to say. Any gun owner I know would never do this and agrees it is horribly irresponsible to store weapons in such a way.


You seem to have misunderstood what I said. Leaving loaded guns around children is indeed irresponsible, but a great many things are irresponsible, but only gun related irresponsibility seems to draw such a hysterical response and calls for more laws, usually from people who would not be affected by said laws. One of my neighbors, for example, once was momentarily distracted while cooking and left a sharp knife on a cutting board where her 6 year old immediately picked it up and cut himself badly enough to require a trip to the ER; would you call that anything other than an accident and/or support some kind of charges against my neighbor? How about a safe storage law for knives and anything else that may harm a child?


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Dox47
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18 Mar 2017, 4:05 am

Raptor wrote:
Id almost forgotten what it's like to have a full time troll around...


Please stop feeding him, I'm busy with work and his garbage is cluttering up the threads when I try to browse on my mobile, and he's not even a funny troll.


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Dox47
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18 Mar 2017, 4:27 am

Mr_Miner wrote:
My time around gun owners showed me they are VERY afraid and VERY angry. They are always planning for a war or hypothetical situation where the gun would be needed. But I also learned you can not speak logically to them. Guns are ingrained in culture and to be an American you have to accept we are not like the rest of the world.


Wow, you must have met a significant portion of the gun owning population to support such a generalization; forty million, maybe fifty? Unless you're confusing your opinion from a handful of experiences with meaningful data, but you wouldn't do that, would you?

Mr_Miner wrote:
First many gun owners do not believe the shootings are really happening. They say the goverment is making the story up so they can take guns.


Many? They must all live on the East Coast, since in my years in the gun culture, including the better part of 2 years in gunsmithing school with gun people from around the country I haven't ever met nor even heard of anyone who has met such a person, occasional wacko on talk radio aside.

Mr_Miner wrote:
Second they blame "mental health". It's not the gun's fault it is the fault of a crazy person. But also there can be no laws to help stop this person from having a gun because it would make them unable to have a gun so it's just something Americans need to deal with. They will say do you blame the car or the drunk person who crashes it?


Are you going to claim that guns shoot themselves of their own volition, or that cars are responsible for drunk driving?
Also, we have laws concerning crazy people an guns, as being involuntarily committed or adjudicated mentally defective makes you ineligible to own a firearm. But you knew that already, since you're so well informed on the subject and all.

Mr_Miner wrote:
They also love to highlight any crime committed with other weapons such as a knife because that proves that since many things can be used to harm guns should be allowed.


It's more like it undermines the argument that guns are uniquely deadly and suited to mass slaughter, so I'd call it a counterpoint to a common anti-gun argument.

Mr_Miner wrote:
After each shooting the same debate happens over and over. All that really happens is more guns are purchased by a small number of Americans who think this particular shooting will cause guns to be illegal. This was MUCH worse under Obama since there were a lot of other racial issues these people brought into that.


Which you know because you're so deeply embedded in the American gun culture? I'm not sure what role you think race played in gun buying, Obama was a liberal democrat who thought banning guns was just peachy when he was a senator, so when he made noises about wanting stricter gun control, people believed him and bought more guns before he could try and ban them, pretty predictable really.

Mr_Miner wrote:
But with Trump there will always be paranoia. This might sound silly to Europe but these people repeat these things over and over. I don't think guns will ever be illegal in America. :cry:


The day anyone tries to ban guns in America is the day you'll really have something to cry about, that will turn bloody.


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18 Mar 2017, 10:51 am

snip snippy snip

Quote:
The day anyone tries to ban guns in America is the day you'll really have something to cry about, that will turn bloody


REALLY? :D

Do you have a plan? Do you know of someone who has a plan? Will this be a sneak media attack?

The fact is most (I was going to say all but stopped myself) of the gun owners I know would not think of bloody (your word) rebellion or revolution. If it was the Left that imposed the restrictions (who else?) then Trump types would be screaming all types of dire threats (you're not one of them are you?) that would mean nothing.

The fact is, if there is no organized revolution then your choice is to bushwhack innocent people...pretty ugly and certainly not going to help retain gun ownership rights. And I know you're not part of this group. The reality is that choices are few.

Actually I think the gun owners will do the same thing I did in Chicago during the riots after Martin Luther King's assassination. At the time it was illegal for any civilian to carry in Chicago...it just wasn't allowed. My job required me to work frequently in riot prone areas, so I (and everyone in the same situation who I was familiar with) just stuck a gun in my pocket and kept my mouth shut. I don't think anyone was arrested for this during the period after the riots.



Raptor
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18 Mar 2017, 11:06 am

Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Id almost forgotten what it's like to have a full time troll around...


Please stop feeding him, I'm busy with work and his garbage is cluttering up the threads when I try to browse on my mobile, and he's not even a funny troll.


You'll live...


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18 Mar 2017, 11:46 am

Raptor wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Id almost forgotten what it's like to have a full time troll around...


Please stop feeding him, I'm busy with work and his garbage is cluttering up the threads when I try to browse on my mobile, and he's not even a funny troll.


You'll live...




Raptor
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18 Mar 2017, 12:03 pm

ZenDen wrote:
snip snippy snip

Quote:
The day anyone tries to ban guns in America is the day you'll really have something to cry about, that will turn bloody


REALLY? :D

Do you have a plan? Do you know of someone who has a plan? Will this be a sneak media attack?

The fact is most (I was going to say all but stopped myself) of the gun owners I know would not think of bloody (your word) rebellion or revolution. If it was the Left that imposed the restrictions (who else?) then Trump types would be screaming all types of dire threats (you're not one of them are you?) that would mean nothing.

The fact is, if there is no organized revolution then your choice is to bushwhack innocent people...pretty ugly and certainly not going to help retain gun ownership rights. And I know you're not part of this group. The reality is that choices are few.

Actually I think the gun owners will do the same thing I did in Chicago during the riots after Martin Luther King's assassination. At the time it was illegal for any civilian to carry in Chicago...it just wasn't allowed. My job required me to work frequently in riot prone areas, so I (and everyone in the same situation who I was familiar with) just stuck a gun in my pocket and kept my mouth shut. I don't think anyone was arrested for this during the period after the riots.


Let's say w're talking about a nation-wide gun ban. Won't happen but I think that's what was implied by Mr_Miner.
Has the war on drugs been bloodless? There are more gun owners than dopers so I think we can safely multiply whatever blood has been spilled on account of the war on drugs a few times at least.

I have no intention of living on constant fear of the cops swooping down on me over my guns which will not be surrendered. I have that "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees" mindset and I probably have a lot of company.
A hard line will have to be drawn somwhere...


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18 Mar 2017, 12:12 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I think the gun thing is about protection....
Do they actually work effectively for protection against assailants who also have guns?

People have the same kind of overconfidence here as elsewhere, and expect to beat the odds. Using a gun to defend your house or your person would seem to require constant training, just like the police or military. You have to clearly identify your target, make sure the whole area is clear, and consider the bullet passing through walls. Special ammunition can prevent that last problem, though. Statistically, a gun in the house will most likely harm someone in the household. Either someone will mishandle it, or shoot someone else accidentally, or shoot a family member on purpose.

I took gun safety classes at age 15, and I periodically read up on the subject to refresh myself, but I don't have any guns which I could rapidly access in case of a home invasion. I have a big flashlight right by my bed which I expect to suffice. My guns are for hunting and target shooting. You shouldn't hunt without having excellent aim; it's cruel. The target of a good hunter dies instantly, and a shot through the cervical spine or brainstem damages the least meat.

Target shooting is just fun, too. I guess some people find the power of guns intimidating, and a lot of yahoos handle guns idiotically, so I have no problem with lots and lots of regulations of guns.

The only pistol I ever owned, I bought after seeing a lot of evidence of cougars. I figured trying to draw, cock, and shoot it would give me something to do while my face got eaten.


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Raptor
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18 Mar 2017, 1:30 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
People have the same kind of overconfidence here as elsewhere, and expect to beat the odds. Using a gun to defend your house or your person would seem to require constant training, just like the police or military. You have to clearly identify your target, make sure the whole area is clear, and consider the bullet passing through walls. Special ammunition can prevent that last problem, though. Statistically, a gun in the house will most likely harm someone in the household. Either someone will mishandle it, or shoot someone else accidentally, or shoot a family member on purpose.

The police and military, other than SWAT and military Spec Ops, do not receive constant training. In fact, some don't get nearly as much trigger time as armed citizens. If armed citizen defensive shootings are as problematic as your kind claim the streets would be running red with blood. Just about all 50 states now have laws allowing concealed and/or open carry in public. Add to that the increase in gun sales over the past 8 years fueled by your anti-gun politicians. Where are all the bodies??

Quote:
I took gun safety classes at age 15, and I periodically read up on the subject to refresh myself, but I don't have any guns which I could rapidly access in case of a home invasion. I have a big flashlight right by my bed which I expect to suffice. My guns are for hunting and target shooting. You shouldn't hunt without having excellent aim; it's cruel. The target of a good hunter dies instantly, and a shot through the cervical spine or brainstem damages the least meat.

1. It's much easier to forcefully relieve someone of a flashlight than disarm someone with a handgun. You have to swing or at least thrust that big flashlight while a handgun can be drawn in close to the body and fired at threats only a few feet away. An impact weapon is best when coupled with a handgun.

2. You haven't done much hunting then. It's not uncommon to have an animal run up to 100 yards or further with a heart / lung shot. I helped someone hump a big black bear out of the boonies that had gone a helluva lot further than 100 yards after being nailed. When we were cutting him up later it became obvious that he was running while dead since his heart and lungs had been wrecked by a 180 grain Nosler Partition bullet out of a Remington 30-06. The shot had been taken from a stand at not much more than 50 yds if that far.
Effective neck or brain shots to animals are very difficult and would take a helluva lot of practice, especially for someone like you who seems to hold guns at arms length contempt.

Quote:
Target shooting is just fun, too. I guess some people find the power of guns intimidating, and a lot of yahoos handle guns idiotically, so I have no problem with lots and lots of regulations of guns.

You're an anti-gun gun owner is what it is. I've heard their song and dance over and over long before since that is what describes my old man. When I was a yoot I had to just about threaten suicide in order to have any gun he considered not absolutely necessary for hunting or just scary and that even meant using my own hard earned and saved up money.


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18 Mar 2017, 1:34 pm

To some fetishists, any faint praise reads as damnation.


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18 Mar 2017, 1:42 pm

I have autism (Asperger's), and I own and shoot firearms, and what I'm going to say may honk some people off. I have been shooting for six years, and guns have helped me. I will keep the politics aside, and just remember, you have the right to believe your own opinions, but so do I. And don't vilify me just because I like guns. They relieve my stress, helped my sensory issues, and they are a hobby for me; not a political statement. As a history buff, I look more than just the defensive or offensive; I look at the engineering, the operating system, the pop culture, and the design techniques. And should I ever have to use a gun for self-defense, then I will do so. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, and I would never commit a crime with a gun. No matter how much I would like to fantasize about video games and action movies, it's not practical in the real world.

And a side note on machine guns. They are NOT illegal to own in the United States, but rather heavily regulated by the 1934 National Firearms Act (NFA), and they are freaking expensive! In fact, no new machine guns have been manufactured or transferred to civilians since May 19th of 1986. For an actual transferable M16 (full-auto version of the semiautomatic AR-15), either as a registered gun, registered lower receiver, registered lightning link, or registered drop-in-auto sear (RDIAS), that's $15,000-$35,000 alone! I've seen a transferable AR-15 RDIAS for nearly $50,000! plus a $200 tax stamp, registration & paperwork, a long expansive background check lasting months, and you must transfer that machine gun through a Class III Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL). And there's only been two cases where a legally owned machine gun was used in a crime; one by a police officer in 1988. I would like to see the NFA registry reopened for machine guns cause I ain't paying tens of thousands for a hacksaw blade with a serial number etched in it! But until that day, I can always rent machine guns that are owned by the gun range I go to for a fraction of the price. They can have machine guns made after 1986 as part of their business. They have a specific FFL to have these machine guns for patrons to rent, but they are used largely for demonstrations for police/military/government inquires and sales.

Since MG's are expensive, or even unobtainable as a US citizen, I collect their airsoft counterparts. They are very good for cheap plinking and for training purposes. Airsoft guns use 6mm plastic BBs propelled by a spring, compressed gas, or an electric gearbox.

Rules of gun safety:
1. Always assume a gun is loaded
2. Keep your finger off the trigger until your intended target is in your sight picture.
3. Do not aim or shoot at anything you do not intend to shoot.
4. Be aware of what your target is, what surrounds the target, and more importantly, your backstop and what's behind the target.
5. If something does not feel right with the gun's operation, stop and assess the situation. Keep the muzzle downrange.
6. ALWAYS wear ear and eye protection!

I could ramble more about my experiences with guns and US federal gun laws, but that would be a whole book. If you don't like guns, that's fine, but don't prohibit me from owning/shooting them when I have a clean record.