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Campin_Cat
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27 Mar 2017, 1:35 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Being a cop is pretty safe job here, it seldom even cracks the top ten in terms of danger (in contrast to delivering pizzas, a job we let teenagers do yet is often near the top of the list)...

Yeah, in Baltimore, a pizza delivery person won't even deliver to your door (you have to go to their vehicle)----in my neighborhood, alone, two of 'em got shot-to-death, and two or three of 'em got beaten so badly, they had to go to the hospital. As much as I feel pizza should be a food group, unto itself, I think it's INSANE to kill / beat-up somebody for one!!

Dox47 wrote:
It used to be common to... drive around with rifles clearly visible in the rear window of your vehicle...

Ahhh, yeah, THOSE were the days, IMO. Everybody in my family, who had a truck, had one of those see-through Confederate flags (or, a REAL one) in the rear window, and then a gun rack over it (IIRC, a rack that held, like, 4 guns). Years later, when I was finally able to afford a truck, I would've given almost ANYTHING to have a Confederate flag in the window, but I didn't wanna get my throat, slit.

Dox47 wrote:
...clearly something other than the availability of guns lead both to our crime problems and our overly aggressive cop problems.

Yeah, IMO, it's one of those "chicken or the egg" situations----and, I've never been able to decide if some of the cops, just, all-of-a-sudden, started being out-of-control-aggressive, and that's what made the PEOPLE aggressive; or, if the people, all-of-a-sudden being out-of-control-aggressive, made the cops be aggressive. It can be a bit of a bummer, though, for ALL involved (directly or indirectly).




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27 Mar 2017, 1:44 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Anyway, I'm not the one who's afraid to step outside without a gun.

I'm not, either----but, it's my right to have one.









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27 Mar 2017, 1:58 pm

Dox47 wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Anyway, I'm not the one who's afraid to step outside without a gun :lol:


There's no fear involved, I carry a gun for the same reason I keep a spare tire in the trunk of my car, a fire extinguisher in my kitchen, and a first aid kit in my backpack, they're all things you'd really rather have and not need than need and not have. Maybe the Boy Scouts should set up in other parts of the world, I'm shocked at how foreign a concept "be prepared" is outside of the US.
Well that makes sense.
Campin_Cat wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Anyway, I'm not the one who's afraid to step outside without a gun.

I'm not, either----but, it's my right to have one.

Sorry but I think Dox47 came up with a better argument that you did. Yours seems to be a bit too circular.
Yeah, in Baltimore, a pizza delivery person won't even deliver to your door (you have to go to their vehicle)----in my neighborhood, alone, two of 'em got shot-to-death, and two or three of 'em got beaten so badly, they had to go to the hospital. As much as I feel pizza should be a food group, unto itself, I think it's INSANE to kill / beat-up somebody for one!!
Perhaps I should have asked why parts of America are like that?


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27 Mar 2017, 3:47 pm

Two notes:

I think a lot of people who've never done it think there is more to carrying a gun than their actually is. I'm sure most people have a little table or basket or something where they drop their keys, wallet, cell phone, etc when they get home, and I'm the same, mine just also has a gun and a spare magazine in it, which go back in my pocket when I go out again, it's really not that big a deal. I happen to carry a pocket pistol most of the time so I don't have to deal with a belt holster or anything, but that wouldn't particularly complicate things, the gun would just go into the holster instead of into my pocket, no different than people who carry cellphones or multitools on their belts.
As my (Canadian) girlfriend likes to point out, the gun on the end table isn't that helpful if someone kicks in the door (at her apartment) or crashes through the window (at my house), to which I reply that if I thought either scenario were particularly likely, I'd keep the thing in the pocket of my bathrobe and have plans to move to a better neighborhood as soon as possible. The gun is a useful situational awareness aid that way, since thinking "how likely is it that I'm going to have to use this thing?" is a good wake up call that maybe I shouldn't be were I am or doing what I'm doing.

Violent crime in America is interesting, but for the point of this discussion, I suggest that anyone who thinks guns must be the secret sauce take a look at our non-gun crime statistics, which are also relatively high. What that should suggest is that while the guns may make some crimes more harmful than they otherwise might be, they don't cause the crime to happen in the first place, which should be obvious to anyone who's ever held a gun in their hand and failed to suddenly have any criminal urges. As always, poverty, desperation, and honor culture are the much more likely culprits, plus creating a giant market for illicit products where the only way to enforce a contract is force certainly didn't help.


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27 Mar 2017, 4:29 pm

NotThatClever13 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the articles I linked were not opinion pieces created by me and were actual news articles. This really avoids my point anyway, that being it's easy to find news articles about this subject. The problem is that it needs a proper scientific study.


NotThatClever13 wrote:
While anyone can study the issue, maybe you arn't aware of this but, a large portion of the unbiased research done is funded by the government. Private corporations have no interest in such issues, the have interest in ventures that generate profit. eg The selling of arms and all the other items that go along with the culture.


Here's a quick overview of why CDC funding for gun studies was cut, and why I continue to support that action:

http://thefederalist.com/2015/12/15/why ... ch-budget/

Quote:
In the late ’80s and early ’90s, the CDC was openly biased in opposing gun rights. CDC official and research head Patrick O’Carroll stated in a 1989 issue of The Journal of the American Medical Association, “We’re going to systematically build a case that owning firearms causes deaths.” This sounds more like activist rhetoric than it does scientific research, as O’Carroll effectively set out with the goal of confirmation bias, saying “We will prove it,” and not the scientific objectiveness of asking “Does it?”
‘It used to be that smoking was a glamour symbol — cool, sexy, macho. Now it is dirty, deadly — and banned.’

O’Carroll went on to deny he had said this, claiming he was misquoted. However, his successor and director of the CDC National Center of Injury Prevention branch Mark Rosenberg told Rolling Stone in 1993 that he “envisions a long term campaign, similar to tobacco use and auto safety, to convince Americans that guns are, first and foremost, a public health menace.” He went on to tell the Washington Post in 1994 “We need to revolutionize the way we look at guns, like what we did with cigarettes. It used to be that smoking was a glamour symbol — cool, sexy, macho. Now it is dirty, deadly — and banned.”

CDC leaders were not shy about their intentions of banning guns from the public. Sure enough, they acted on their desires. In October 1993, The New England Journal of Medicine released a study funded by the CDC to the tune of $1.7 million, entitled “Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home.” The leader author was Dr. Arthur Kellermann, an epidemiologist, physician, and outspoken advocate of gun control.

In the study, Kellerman concluded that people who kept guns in their homes were 2.7 times more likely to be homicide victims as people who don’t. Major media outlets, such as the New York Times, still cite these statistics.
Unreliable Gun Research

However, the research was beyond flawed. For one, Kellermann used epidemiological methods in an attempt to investigate an issue dealing with criminology. In effect, this means he was treating gun violence the same as, say, the spread of West Nile, or bird flu.
It provided no proof or examples that the murder weapon used in these crimes belonged to the homeowner or had been kept in that home.

Furthermore, the gun victims he studied were anomalies. They were selected from homicide victims living in metropolitan areas with high gun-crime statistics, which completely discounted the statistical goliath of areas where gun owners engage in little to no crime.

Other factors that lent to the study’s unreliability were: It is based entirely on people murdered in their homes, with 50 percent admitting this was the result of a “quarrel or romantic triangle,” and 30 percent said it was during a drug deal or other felonies such as rape or burglary; it made no consideration for guns used in self-defense; it provided no proof or examples that the murder weapon used in these crimes belonged to the homeowner or had been kept in that home.

These problems prompted objections and questions from leading scientists in the field of criminology, such as Yale University professor John Lott, Florida State’s Gary Kleck, and University of Massachusetts sociology professors James D. Wright and Peter H. Rossi. Their research had come to vastly different conclusions, and they found the methodology unsound.


There's more, with links, at the linked page, and I can go a lot further than that, but I prefer not to, since I've yet to find any study that can't be "debunked" one way or another, and so find them mostly to be a waste of time as an argumentative tool.

NotThatClever13 wrote:
Which studies are these? Are they from an unbiased source? The issues in Chicago are a poor example. Banning guns in a particular city when they are easily accessible all around it does nothing. It doesn't take a lot of thought to figure this out.


First, there is no such thing as an unbiased source, but for the record, that comes from John Lott.

NotThatClever13 wrote:
I think you missed my overall point. That being we both could link articles all day of the good and bad outcomes of carrying weapons. The point is that an unbiased and comprehensive study of the issue is needed. It is more common than it could be is the point. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want a proper study done as it would surely prove you are correct. You could proceed to cite that research any time someone says something contradictory. Then we could start getting rid of all the onerous gun laws so we could all be safer.


You've never going to get an unbiased study, and I'm not convinced that further study is needed, it's easy to pin down the root causes of crime, and guns are not one of them. At best, you can make an argument that the availability of guns makes some crimes more serious than they might otherwise have been or that they increase the chance of a suicide attempt being successful, but not that they actually cause people to commit crimes.
I also think you're missing the point of all this, it's not about crime or safety, it's about Blue America not liking Red America having guns for various and sundry reasons, most of them not grounded in reality, and no amount of studies, no matter how meticulously carried out and free of bias, will stop the procession of pointless and burdensome gun laws.

NotThatClever13 wrote:
I'm sure you know but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Not allowing the government to fund a study of the issue means it will likely never happen. That was the entire point of blocking them from doing so.


As discussed above, they were blocked because they were engaging in blatant ant-gun activism with taxpayer dollars, and that wasn't going to stand.

NotThatClever13 wrote:
If it is stored loaded under a couch cushion of other place easily reached by children as a matter of normal storage procedure, it is not an accident but irresponsible.


Which I already agreed to, my argument is that people treat someone who keeps a gun under their pillow a lot differently than someone who, say, leaves the gate to their swimming pool open (which kills many more children annually than improperly secured firearms), which tells me that it isn't so much about the children as about the guns.



NotThatClever13 wrote:
If laws were put in place to better train gun buyers and enforce better storage of weapons a lot of these "accidents" would cease to exist. That would leave the media with less to sensationalize which would only benefit the cause of gun owners. The less people see this stuff in the media the less they will favor banning guns.


By "enforce", do you mean like home inspections? Cause that's not going to happen.

The way to get less people to favor banning guns is for the media to stop lying about guns, but barring a sudden influx of rural Americans to j-schools, I don't see that happening, so we're stuck fighting misinformation with the truth and calling out lies and liars when we see them.


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27 Mar 2017, 4:45 pm

b9 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
b9 wrote:
Quote:
Why do Americans love guns so much?


'cause their dicks fit neatly into the barrels.


Better than no dicks.
Ya know, when I was a yoot I thought of Australians as a hardy lot and not the type to get the willies over inanimate objects, especially when the guns they seem to get their panties in a knot over the most are nearly on the far side of the globe. Since I've been on WP (10 years) and involved in these gunz-r-bad threads I think we've had more anti-gunners from Australia pop up than from any other country.


i don't really care anyway. i just said what i said because it sounded "witty" at the time (i see now it was not that good).
Wittiness is just fine but we do see a lot of foreign interest in this topic. One said that he wanted stricter gun control in the US because he's sick and tired of seeing on the news shootings that happen in the US. Yeah, we're going to give up our rights so he can feel all warm and fuzzy about watching the news. :roll:
Another one fabricated relatives in North Carolina that he was worried about what with all the bullets whizzing around constantly. :roll: Must have been the N. Carolina on Mars. I say fabricated relatives in the states because were well into that gunz-r-bad thread and he had nothing to argue with so he likely made $hit up in order to appear to have a vested interest. He too was an Aussie if i remember right.

But yes; whit, trollery, ad hominem attacks, strawmen, red herrings, dog whistles, and cyberbullying are all welcome by me and I will be all too happy to reciprocate in kind. :D


Quote:
what you people do in the USA is up to you.

[sarcasm]Gee thanks, we were so worried![/sarcasm]

Quote:
the only qualm i would have about guns being legal in australia, is that the police would be paranoid like yours are when they pull you over for even a minor infraction.

your cops are trained to treat everyone as if they are a potential gun carrier, and because of that, people get crash tackled and hancuffed until they are searched and found to be "clean".

in australia, police just walk up to your car and knock on the window and are quite friendly.

everyone that gets 'cuffed in the USA seems to have their hands cuffed behind their backs, and in australia, if they are 'cuffed at all, it's almost always in front of their bodies.

I've been pulled over for moving violations and never had an issue. Some of those times I even informed the cop that have a carry permit and was "carrying" because I thought by law that we were supposed to inform them. All I got was ether a "thanks for letting me know" or just a little so what shrug. If I was going to do something naughty with that gun it would already have been done by that time.

Most cops arent that bad but they do tend to cover for the ones that really are bad.....which is bad in itself. They also tend to blindly follow orders which is also bad. I could write much more about law enforcement in the US but that's a subject in itself.

Quote:
anyway raptor, i have no philosophical stance or interest in guns.

I'll remeber that if this subject comes up again............and it will come up again.


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27 Mar 2017, 4:53 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
b9 wrote:
Quote:
Why do Americans love guns so much?


'cause their dicks fit neatly into the barrels.


Better than no dicks.
Ya know, when I was a yoot I thought of Australians as a hardy lot and not the type to get the willies over inanimate objects, especially when the guns they seem to get their panties in a knot over the most are nearly on the far side of the globe. Since I've been on WP (10 years) and involved in these gunz-r-bad threads I think we've had more anti-gunners from Australia pop up than from any other country.


So we should all just agree with you based on your say-so? That would make us no dicks.

It's also dickless to blindly go along with propaganda and slanted statistics. Why not apply some critical thinking to the subject and come up with your own answers?


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27 Mar 2017, 5:12 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Anyway, I'm not the one who's afraid to step outside without a gun.

I'm not, either----but, it's my right to have one.

Sorry but I think Dox47 came up with a better argument that you did. Yours seems to be a bit too circular.

Well, I was going for "short and sweet" (so-to-speak)----direct, and to-the-point----I'll try to put a little more umpf into it, next time!! LOL

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Yeah, in Baltimore, a pizza delivery person won't even deliver to your door (you have to go to their vehicle)----in my neighborhood, alone, two of 'em got shot-to-death, and two or three of 'em got beaten so badly, they had to go to the hospital. As much as I feel pizza should be a food group, unto itself, I think it's INSANE to kill / beat-up somebody for one!!

Perhaps I should have asked why parts of America are like that?

Well, I can't really speak to ALOT of places, but, here in Baltimore: There's a large impoverished population (Bernie Sanders said, when he was here, "it's like a third-world country"----'course, alot of that has to do with so many businesses being burned / boarded-up / closed, because of the riots after Freddie Gray's death), alot of schizophrenics that aren't finding / seeking help, alot of Diabetics (including alot of people who have had to get their leg[s] chopped off, because of it), rampant cocaine and heroine abuse takes so many lives (figuratively - and literally too), alot of tuberculosis, alot of hepatitis (common among pushers), alot of gangs, and a huge lack of jobs (Baltimore was a HUGE Port City - maybe only rivaled by NYC, on the East Coast - but, so many of the big corporations that were here, moved to other parts of the country, or sent the work overseas, or just went out of business [ie, GM, McCormick Spice, Domino Sugar, Bromo Seltzer, Martin and Marietta, Bethlehem Steel, CSX (I worked for them, myself, as a brakeman / conductor - but, when companies leave, there isn't as much work, and so the last one hired, is the first one fired), and others - almost all of which were manufacturing jobs - and with no companies, replacing them])----so, that's alot, to make alot of people depressed, angry, feel entitled, maybe even an explanation for what seems to be, like, a psychopathy epidemic (as in, "my life has no value----so, why should YOURS?" [or, "neither should yours"]), etc., etc., etc.

In reality, though, probably none of that is any different than any other major metropolitan area.....





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27 Mar 2017, 5:32 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Being a cop is pretty safe job here, it seldom even cracks the top ten in terms of danger (in contrast to delivering pizzas, a job we let teenagers do yet is often near the top of the list)...

Yeah, in Baltimore, a pizza delivery person won't even deliver to your door (you have to go to their vehicle)----in my neighborhood, alone, two of 'em got shot-to-death, and two or three of 'em got beaten so badly, they had to go to the hospital. As much as I feel pizza should be a food group, unto itself, I think it's INSANE to kill / beat-up somebody for one!!


You'll love this one:
Quote:
The three bad guys wielding hand guns and an AK-47 rifle were seemingly prepared for an elaborate armored-car robbery but their target was only a Pizza Hut driver toting a pizza in a pouch.

The suspects, who allegedly made their get away in a black Nissan Xterra with the pizza and whatever change the driver was carrying, have not yet been captured, according to a Colorado Springs police.

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/01/25/pizza-delivery-robbery-colorado-springs/


Neither Domino's or Pizza Hut employees are permitted to be armed on the job under any circumstances but sometimes they do it anyways.
Quote:
According to CMPD, Pizza Hut was closed when three people walked in to rob the business. One of the employees reportedly fired his own handgun, fatally striking one of the suspects. He was pronounced dead on scene by MEDIC.

Police said the robbery suspect was carrying a gun when he was shot.

http://wncn.com/2016/10/30/nc-pizza-hut-worker-uses-own-gun-to-kill-armed-robber-police-say/


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27 Mar 2017, 5:40 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
Fugu wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
And, how do you propose we do that? Do you think the local police should go-around to everyone's home, for unannounced safety inspections? Meanwhile, the REAL criminals will be running rampant.
here's three ways:
1) require that a gun safe is installed if you're purchasing firearms/applying for a firearms-related license
2) tax ammo sales and have said inspections, though not unannounced
3)regulate ammo(and components to manufacture same)
Quote:
Also----and I really don't mean to be rude, in saying this----but, why is it that non-Americans / non-citizens, are so often giving us flak about our guns? When you've walked a mile, in my shoes.....

Nobody likes unsolicited advice----and, even if an American started a thread on here, to ask advice on how we could get rid of guns, that would be ONE American's request.
maybe it's how the US is ranked 4th in the world for firearm related deaths(http://vizhub.healthdata.org/gbd-compare/# C3.2.1 Physical violence by Firearm, deaths) and 2nd for prevalence of firearm related deaths(http://vizhub.healthdata.org/gbd-compare/# C3.2.1, prevalence). Brazil leads the world in gun violence, but the US beats them in unintentional firearm fatal injuries.(C2.5.1, deaths).

P.S. you can't really call it unsolicited with a straight face when nearly half the country wants more firearms control

Well, here you are again, all in the mustard, tryin' to ketchup!! I wasn't even talking to you----but, I'll go this round with ya, just so the THINKING people will see how silly your posts, are.....

Those three suggestions you made, up there, are for regulating LAW-ABIDING citizens, and most of them already have gun cabinets; and, I would venture to guess that most CRIMINALS, DON'T----so, what do you propose, to regulate CRIMINALS?

If you don't have "unannounced" inspections, how do you figure they're gonna be effective? I mean, if law enforcement announces that they're gonna inspect houses, then CRIMINALS will just let their "cousin" hold their firearms, until the heat passes (LAW-ABIDING citizens will already be following regulations, to a "T").

Ammunition is already regulated. California, for instance----one of thee most-regulated states in the country----says one can't LEGALLY buy / possess magazines that hold more than 10 rounds; AND, they require a background check, just for ammunition.

As for our rankings, you've linked: I don't care if we rank no. 1 in every single category there is, regarding guns----unless Americans are coming to YOUR country, and trying to illegally sell YOUR citizens, guns, it shouldn't matter to any other country, what we're doing. (Suggestion: If you want to successfully dupe/bait people by putting only "Dallas" in your profile, you should know that Americans consider using the word "spelt", as bad English, and we don't spell "color", with a "u".)

As for your P.S.: Well, if "nearly half the country wants more firearms control", than MORE-THAN-HALF, DOESN'T!! LOLOLOL TOO funny!!

As for your problem with the way I define, "anecdotal": My dictionary says (copied and pasted):


"consisting of or based on secondhand accounts rather than firsthand knowledge or experience"

So, by that definition, the word "anecdotal" doesn't apply to what I was relating, because it was firsthand experience. Most people on here, cry "anecdotal" because they want some kind of "scientific" something----and, while I respect / appreciate science, it is not, IMO, the be-all-and-end-all.

so you didn't bother to read my link, don't give a crap about people dying and are still trying to redefine words. also you're hilariously ignorant about US guns flying into mexico to fuel the border skirmishes and generally turn the border areas into DMZs.
as for your comments about my location.....you are aware that immigrants are a thing, right?
Raptor wrote:
Just post a picture of a plate of fried fish and hushpuppies, or a fillet knife.
Scares the hell out of him.
:twisted:
you're mistaking "irritated at your petulant antics/unfunny jokes" for "scared"



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27 Mar 2017, 5:48 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Here's a quick overview of why CDC funding for gun studies was cut, and why I continue to support that action:

http://thefederalist.com/2015/12/15/why ... ch-budget/

Quote:
In the late ’80s and early ’90s, the CDC was openly biased in opposing gun rights. CDC official and research head Patrick O’Carroll stated in a 1989 issue of The Journal of the American Medical Association, “We’re going to systematically build a case that owning firearms causes deaths.” This sounds more like activist rhetoric than it does scientific research, as O’Carroll effectively set out with the goal of confirmation bias, saying “We will prove it,” and not the scientific objectiveness of asking “Does it?”
it's hilarious that you're opposed to CDC gun research because some dude there posed a fait accompli about wanting to prove that getting shot leads to dying/death, and you're doing the exact same thing w/r/t not wanting gun safety studies.



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27 Mar 2017, 5:58 pm

Campin Cat do you still have my fillet knife?


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27 Mar 2017, 6:00 pm

is this it?

Image



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27 Mar 2017, 7:10 pm

In my trade, when a bit is dull we say it's "about as sharp as a mackerel"; I think I'm going to have to amend the species of fish we use as a synonym for not too sharp.


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27 Mar 2017, 7:38 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Two notes:

I think a lot of people who've never done it think there is more to carrying a gun than their actually is. I'm sure most people have a little table or basket or something where they drop their keys, wallet, cell phone, etc when they get home, and I'm the same, mine just also has a gun and a spare magazine in it, which go back in my pocket when I go out again, it's really not that big a deal. I happen to carry a pocket pistol most of the time so I don't have to deal with a belt holster or anything, but that wouldn't particularly complicate things, the gun would just go into the holster instead of into my pocket, no different than people who carry cellphones or multitools on their belts.
Why would I be scared of carrying a gun? I'd be scared of other people carrying guns.
Dox47 wrote:
Violent crime in America is interesting, but for the point of this discussion, I suggest that anyone who thinks guns must be the secret sauce take a look at our non-gun crime statistics, which are also relatively high. What that should suggest is that while the guns may make some crimes more harmful than they otherwise might be, they don't cause the crime to happen in the first place, which should be obvious to anyone who's ever held a gun in their hand and failed to suddenly have any criminal urges. As always, poverty, desperation, and honor culture are the much more likely culprits, plus creating a giant market for illicit products where the only way to enforce a contract is force certainly didn't help.
Of course crime will exist without guns. Not as much deadly crime.

I couldn't find a statistical source specifically for non-gun crimes in the US but I found this. If you were thinking of a specific source I'd be happy to look at it.


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RetroGamer87
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27 Mar 2017, 7:54 pm

Raptor wrote:
It's also dickless to blindly go along with propaganda and slanted statistics. Why not apply some critical thinking to the subject and come up with your own answers?
Would you be shocked if my own answers differed from yours? :lol: Usually when I come up with my own answers I get flack from both sides. Not that I'll let that stop me.

Anyway, which slanted statistics did I cite? I know there were a lot of links to left-wing articles, they were posted by NotThatClever13, not by me.


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Last edited by RetroGamer87 on 27 Mar 2017, 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.