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PwoperNereguar
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14 Mar 2017, 8:00 pm

I want to post my thoughts on morality and see what ya'll think.

Essentially, my viewpoints are ones of determinism and the morality side of that. I'm against punishment, as I don't believe people to be good or evil, just misguided and without knowledge and experience. Good and evil acts exist, such as murder and manipulation or acceptance and honesty, but good and evil people don't, as the way they are is due to their minds (just as some can be inherently obsessed with sex and have an addictive personality, others can feel the same way about children and can't get help because they're hated, even if they haven't acted upon their birth-given feelings). I don't believe in punishment, and feel that rehabilitation is the right way to go with everything, where people are helped rather than punished, as punishment gets people nowhere other than satisfying feelings of revenge. I believe that the worst of crimes should be dealt with by locking the person away, but not to punish them, to teach them and help them get the attention they need to acknowledge and understand morality and/or helped to control feelings and urges.

Crimes are committed due to instinctive behaviour, heightened emotion, lack of knowledge/control for a dopamine high (a sense of reward and satisfaction; what drives everything in life). By punishing a person, you're being exactly the same, acting out of rage and other toxic emotions and attempting to feel satisfied at the outcome. All it does is cause pain for someone that society deems deserving of it. In contrast, giving help and attention to the person, who is the way they are for a reason, always, creates another functional member of society, nobody is hurt and the intoxicating cycle of animalistic behaviour and heightened emotions comes to a halt.

No, because if you were brought up without learning these morals, how can you know any differently as an adult to as a child. Some children have parents that give them free range of the Internet and news sources, while others have their child focus only on Nazi propaganda. Some parents raise their child by hitting them and hitting their pets to make the shut up while others are brought up with parents that are so laid back that they don't even know when they're doing something wrong. The human mind is SO fragile. So unbelievably fragile. So easy for people to be manipulated and conditioned a certain way, and melded into a certain person. And some people have an addictive personality with no impulse control. People are so quick to play judge and jury, saying that people are good or bad. I think it's truly naive to think that way, and part of me feels that it's behind thinking, as I once felt that way too until I put a little thought into it. People saying murderers and paedophiles should be executed and that philanthropists and people who give and care are martyrs. It's just how people have been melded, and one trait does not define a person. Negative traits should be helped, and if said person is a danger to society they should be imprisoned, but not as a punishment and instead as a way to psychologically help and change said person.

Some people aren't privileged enough to get education on morals, and others have feelings that they can't talk about in fear of being shunned by society even though they were born into it. Take a sex addict. Can't stop thinking about sex. If they don't get help, they'll keep being a harm to themselves and others. We accept this. Now, and this is where many struggle, a paedophile. Never touched a child in their life, but has EXTREME urges to that's only understandable if you've ever been addicted to something. They can't talk to people about it or get help as they would be shunned and hated.

This got deep, but I sincerely believe that everyone is equal, and the mental state they've been cursed with or gifted with should not define them, and nor should the way they've been conditioned to be as a child. People are so quick to say 'IT'S NEVER THE DOG IT'S ALWAYS THE OWNER', so why is it such a hard concept to believe that humans are very much the same.

Personally, I completely stand by Galen Strawson, who believes:

1. You do what you do, in any given situation, because of the way you are.
2. In order to be ultimately responsible for what you do, you have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are—at least in certain crucial mental aspects.
3. But you cannot be ultimately responsible for the way you are in any respect at all.
4. So you can’t be ultimately responsible for what you do.

My argument is that nobody is good or bad, but the choices they make are.



LoveNotHate
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15 Mar 2017, 7:55 am

Agree!

I'm going to have to do some searching on "Galen Strawson".



ASPartOfMe
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15 Mar 2017, 8:10 am

Disagree completely. Your genetics and personality make you, well you but people can and do change. Unfortunately, a major way people learn is by suffering consequences for mistakes.

You will never convince me what people like Stalin or Hitler did were not immoral nor that they had no responsibility for their actions.

That said I am not advocating abusive punishment. I understand that each individual differs, some individuals are not responsible for their actions, individual situations differ, that far too often correct actions are punished and mistakes and evil is rewarded.


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Yo El
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18 Mar 2017, 8:12 am

PwoperNereguar wrote:
I believe that the worst of crimes should be dealt with by locking the person away, but not to punish them, to teach them and help them get the attention they need to acknowledge and understand morality and/or helped to control feelings and urges..
Punishment can be an effective tool for teaching. If you use it in the right way. Creating a negative experience with certain behaviours gives people an aversion from doing it again. This way you actually protect the person and others around him. Punishment is necessary for a person development, it's maybe negative in short-term but essential for long-term. Ofcourse you shouldn't torture him or traumatize him. For proper punishment you need to be righteous, make a good assesment of the situation and always do it because you care about the person and the environment he is affecting. For example: If you punish your kid for hitting someone. You actually protect him from future trouble and also his environment. Else he might one day hit the wrong guy and he ends up in the hospital or even worse. Ofcourse thinking of what the proper punishment is for this is a whole different story. The best thing is to take away the very thing that caused him to express such violent behaviour in the first place. It doesn't always have to be a thing it can be a thought or feeling. But you should never, ever leave bad behaviour untreated.



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18 Mar 2017, 8:26 am

Agree!


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Yo El
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18 Mar 2017, 8:35 am

PwoperNereguar wrote:
'll keep being a harm Personally, I completely stand by Galen Strawson, who believes:

1. You do what you do, in any given situation, because of the way you are.
2. In order to be ultimately responsible for what you do, you have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are—at least in certain crucial mental aspects.
3. But you cannot be ultimately responsible for the way you are in any respect at all.
4. So you can’t be ultimately responsible for what you do.

My argument is that nobody is good or bad, but the choices they make are.
I don't agree with this. You are responsible for the way you are. Because what you decide to do in any given moment is your own choice an act of one's own free-will. External and internal factors can greatly affect someone's behaviour and can ultimately result in bad behaviour. But the choice always remains, you can always to choose to not do something no matter the urge. And I think people shouldn't look down on the people who do bad behaviour and think that they are better than them. Every person is able to terrible stuff when the right circumstances are met. This is the reason why some people think there are no good or bad people. I think it means everyone is a bad person.



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18 Mar 2017, 8:38 am

It's an excuse to act the way you want, regardless of the feelings of others.

People ARE responsible for their own behavior.



Yo El
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18 Mar 2017, 9:07 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
It's an excuse to act the way you want, regardless of the feelings of others.

People ARE responsible for their own behavior.
Agreed, this is a neglection of one's responsibility to act morally. That's why I like convicted criminals, not because of what they have done but because they don't make excuses for the terrible things they have done. They know they are a bad person and many regret their actions. I also think they don't appreciate people on forums trying to justify or make excuses for their bad behaviours.

Ever seen Joker's social experiment? It might be a movie but it reveals the truth of human behaviour. Especially those who think they aren't a 'bad' person, and wha they do to others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4GAQtGtd_0



LoveNotHate
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18 Mar 2017, 9:40 am

Yo El wrote:
, you can always to choose to not do something no matter the urge.

If that were true, then we wouldn't have "addicted" or OCD people.



Yo El
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18 Mar 2017, 9:43 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Yo El wrote:
, you can always to choose to not do something no matter the urge.

If that were true, then we wouldn't have "addicted" people.
Lol, if that was true how can people be ex-addicts?. People can stop addiction, it isn't easy but you can stop. Ex-addicts confirm that people have a free choice no matter the circumstance they are in.



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18 Mar 2017, 6:14 pm

I tend to agree with the OP. I am not convinced either way by determinism or free will and I think there is much more research to be done. If however determinism is true then we have a problem. What do we do with the people whose hand as dealt them a life that is not compatible with a free and relatively honest and fair society? IE even though there is a fair degree of manipulation, anger, exploitation, in society most people don't rape, murder, steal nd kidnap. I have long held the view that prison should not be a punishment it should be regarded as rather a place to put people (in relative comfort) to keep the vast majority safe from them. I don't have the stats but I would think most of the prison population could safely be released into the community under some form of house arrest using gps tags. This would allow them to work, support their families, and undergo therapy/rehab. Not only would this have a better outcome it would free up tens/hundreds of millions in wasted expense. As drug addiction has been raised I think people need to look at the portuguese approach where they decrimilized all drugs and shifted responsibility for addiction from law and order to health. Portuguese Model


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