Page 1 of 2 [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

19 Apr 2017, 11:56 am

To preface this: Although I have been quite anti-Trump in the past (and have gotten into some arguments with others about it,) Trump's current behaviour is beginning to have coherence to me. Who knows, maybe he's what the world needs right now?

My question in this post is regarding Trump's statement that the USS Carl Vinson was headed to North Korea when it was headed in the other direction and its course was not changed until 4 days ago.

Quote:
Remember that U.S. aircraft carrier that was headed to the Korean Peninsula as both the Trump administration and North Korea began to talk tough with one another? It turns out it wasn't — at least, not when we were led to think it was.


Quote:
Newly discovered photos show that it was actually traveling in the other direction — into the Indian Ocean — as recently as four days ago.


The Washington Post: The White House’s misleading statements about Trump’s ‘armada’ heading to North Korea

Sean Spicer was asked about this today and he said that the aircraft carrier is headed to North Korea, that the president was not speaking in the immediate sense when he said what he did.

So my question is: Is this a lie? If Trump's intention when he made the statement was meant to encompass the near future, not the immediate, then maybe it is not a lie. Personally I think Trump didn't realize how long it would take to redirect the "armada."

Now, if it is a lie, I wonder if it even matters. Is it the sentiment that matters or the truth?

Image



androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

20 Apr 2017, 3:22 am

Really ... no response? I even put a map in the post.

I used to think truth was paramount, but lately my mind is changing. Words seem to have less meaning today than when I was young. It used to be that when people were caught in a situation as described in the op, that they would be embarrassed and ashamed, but today things are different. Maybe it started with the slackening of spelling rules that came with texting, and it has spread to the actual meaning of words.

I think this is a sign of the decline of civilization, but that is inevitable.



Shahunshah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,192
Location: NZ

20 Apr 2017, 3:50 am

Trump seems to be impulsive and changed his mind, or their may have been some behind the scenes dealings with China, Russia and North Korea. We just don't know. It does some relatively normal and not too alarming.

Decline of Civilization?

Do you remember the 1990s Androbot, Bosnia, Rwanda and Kosovo those were war zones. But thing is now their is very little crises going on in those regions. Its just that the media has the need to gravitate from one crisis to another. We as a result do not see what terrible things we averted or how much we have climbed.



androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

20 Apr 2017, 6:34 am

Shahunshah wrote:
Trump seems to be impulsive and changed his mind, or their may have been some behind the scenes dealings with China, Russia and North Korea. We just don't know. It does some relatively normal and not too alarming.

Decline of Civilization?

Do you remember the 1990s Androbot, Bosnia, Rwanda and Kosovo those were war zones. But thing is now their is very little crises going on in those regions. Its just that the media has the need to gravitate from one crisis to another. We as a result do not see what terrible things we averted or how much we have climbed.


You are misunderstanding me ... it is not war that is concerning me (with regard to this thread,) it is knowledge and its decline. This is what I mean about decline of civilization; knowledge and learning and a regard for both.

I think as a result of the baby boom in the last century a culture of youth developed. Do you remember the "Me generation?" With this there was a turn from the regard for academia to self-expression. And self-expression came to dominate. The result of which we see today.

It seems not so important to be correct or in accord with shared knowledge as it is to express what one is feeling. Trump is a perfect example of this.



Shahunshah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,192
Location: NZ

20 Apr 2017, 6:46 am

androbot01 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Trump seems to be impulsive and changed his mind, or their may have been some behind the scenes dealings with China, Russia and North Korea. We just don't know. It does some relatively normal and not too alarming.

Decline of Civilization?

Do you remember the 1990s Androbot, Bosnia, Rwanda and Kosovo those were war zones. But thing is now their is very little crises going on in those regions. Its just that the media has the need to gravitate from one crisis to another. We as a result do not see what terrible things we averted or how much we have climbed.


You are misunderstanding me ... it is not war that is concerning me (with regard to this thread,) it is knowledge and its decline. This is what I mean about decline of civilization; knowledge and learning and a regard for both.

I think as a result of the baby boom in the last century a culture of youth developed. Do you remember the "Me generation?" With this there was a turn from the regard for academia to self-expression. And self-expression came to dominate. The result of which we see today.

It seems not so important to be correct or in accord with shared knowledge as it is to express what one is feeling. Trump is a perfect example of this.

And America does not accept Trump and his alternative facts, well over 50% disapprove of his job as president.

I am not sure if what your saying is true. Some people like expressing themselves, but when discussing important issues a regard for facts is still there. Ask any people in my history class about Trump's Muslim ban and you will get some interesting responses, they understand very well why it is wrong, their is heavy vetting already being done. Terrorists are a subgroup of a subgroup, an increase in terror attacks has more to do with a variety of social conditions and is not relate mainly to Islam. And that in say countries like Iran and Canada where Muslims are more integrated their is very little terrorism.

Meanwhile say I popped into your school and I asked everyone what they thought of Reagan's Iran-Contra scandal what response would I get?



androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

20 Apr 2017, 6:54 am

I was never a big fan of Reagan. That whole Oliver North thing was painful.

And then there was Clinton, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

But with the rise of FOX news it seemed that this way of thinking was being embraced in greater society. But maybe Trump has brought this issue to the forefront. Like you say, his approval ratings are not good.



Shahunshah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,192
Location: NZ

20 Apr 2017, 7:02 am

androbot01 wrote:
I was never a big fan of Reagan. That whole Oliver North thing was painful.

And then there was Clinton, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

But with the rise of FOX news it seemed that this way of thinking was being embraced in greater society. But maybe Trump has brought this issue to the forefront. Like you say, his approval ratings are not good.
I liked some of Reagan not so much of others. I think he is a good example of how a politician appearing to be an extremist can be actually very moderate during show time. I always liked that about him.

I do think is scary the way people sideline getting an informed media in favor of seeing something which confirms their own biases. Its almost as though society is putting its own ego and illusion of being right in front of truth. This may indirectly cause their own demise, as we can see with global warming, they are choosing put on ear muffs to avoid running from the lion which could eat them. We really could lose, that fight and it will be brutal.



Drake
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,436

20 Apr 2017, 7:07 am

It's this specific incident that made me unsure about answering. Normally I think the truth is extremely important. But I also think Trump is right about not telling countries the US is at war with what the US is going to do. But the US is not at war with North Korea. But North Korea is hostile towards the US. Messy.

I watched this today with regard to "fake news", you might find it interesting.



I don't know how reliable a source the dude is, but I found it particularly interesting him talking about his belief that much of it isn't ill-intentioned and how the old style high quality journalism is no longer economically viable in the internet age. It made me think of the issues science and research face. Somehow non-partizan, high quality news sourcing needs to become economically viable again.



Last edited by Drake on 20 Apr 2017, 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Shahunshah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,192
Location: NZ

20 Apr 2017, 7:07 am

I guess Androbot I kind of agree that truth doesn't matter to many people. Where I am not sure about is whether A it is a new phenomenon or is a youth thing.



fifasy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Mar 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,264
Location: England

20 Apr 2017, 7:16 am

Yeah, I think maybe Trump is the baby boomers' last stand. After WWII governments brought in some awesome welfare policies. Suddenly poor people had decent houses, children got a better education, health services became available to the less well off. In a new era of enlightenment and peace there was a flourishing of trade, and new technologies and scientific advances made it a golden era. The thing is though lessons hadn't been properly learned. Too many of these baby boomers who got it so good soon forgot their parents' deaths in the wars and how lucky they were to be benefiting from hard won rights their ancestors had died for. They were spoiled and it started to go wrong in the '70s, then big time in the '80s. Since then it's been a rapid downhill tumble. When they got their hands on money the baby boomers got high, had tons of children and made a lot of money. They forgot the earthy values which we all need to maintain a decent society. And I suppose in that climate opportunists saw a way to sell to these self-indulgent people the narcissistic, braindead media they wanted because it reflected their own morally vacuous lives.



androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

20 Apr 2017, 7:58 am

Shahunshah wrote:
Its almost as though society is putting its own ego and illusion of being right in front of truth.

I agree. And as people's ability to argue diminishes with lack of education it becomes about ego and who can emote most effectively. Bill O'Reilly is an example of this. I am glad he is finished at FOX.

Drake wrote:
...Normally I think the truth is extremely important. But I also think Trump is right about not telling countries the US is at war with what the US is going to do. ...

Yes but when Trump made his statement about the "armada" he also said that submarines were moving into the Korean Peninsula. Should he be saying this if he wants to hide what they are going to do?

Drake wrote:
I watched this today with regard to "fake news", you might find it interesting.


I like this Tim Pool guy. He expresses himself well. I think he is right about it coming down to money.


Shahunshah wrote:
...Where I am not sure about is whether A it is a new phenomenon or is a youth thing.

I think it is a phenomenon that is at a tipping point.

fifasy wrote:
...They were spoiled and it started to go wrong in the '70s, then big time in the '80s. Since then it's been a rapid downhill tumble. When they got their hands on money the baby boomers got high, had tons of children and made a lot of money. They forgot the earthy values which we all need to maintain a decent society.

I agree.



Shahunshah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,192
Location: NZ

20 Apr 2017, 8:05 am

androbot01 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Its almost as though society is putting its own ego and illusion of being right in front of truth.

I agree. And as people's ability to argue diminishes with lack of education it becomes about ego and who can emote most effectively. Bill O'Reilly is an example of this. I am glad he is finished at FOX.
Bill O'Reilly was not an example of it. He actually advocated for banning assault weapons which shows a bit of open mindedness. What's more or less he did engage in a civilized debate with Jon Stewart and listened to his perspective. I never felt as though he put pushing a conservative viewpoint above everything else. That being said I am not fond of the guy for his personal life.

Its really shitheads like Hannity which are the issue, Bill I think very possibly could have been a good influence.



androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

20 Apr 2017, 1:56 pm

Shahunshah wrote:
He actually advocated for banning assault weapons which shows a bit of open mindedness. ...

I can't watch Hannity, he makes me angry. You're right about O'Reilly, but I never liked the way he used to tell people to shut up; that's no way to engage in discourse. If you have to tell someone else to shut up, maybe you should consider that it is you who is talking too much.


Did anyone see Paul Begala on Anderson Cooper last night? He called Trump a jerk and said he should shut his mouth. He said he is not up to the office.

TURN YOUR VOLUME DOWN ... The quality is not top rate. Skip to 4 m 12 s, and check Miller's expression at 4 m 32 s. I think Begala was a little harsh.



Shahunshah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,192
Location: NZ

20 Apr 2017, 6:33 pm

androbot01 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
He actually advocated for banning assault weapons which shows a bit of open mindedness. ...

I can't watch Hannity, he makes me angry. You're right about O'Reilly, but I never liked the way he used to tell people to shut up; that's no way to engage in discourse. If you have to tell someone else to shut up, maybe you should consider that it is you who is talking too much.


Did anyone see Paul Begala on Anderson Cooper last night? He called Trump a jerk and said he should shut his mouth. He said he is not up to the office.

TURN YOUR VOLUME DOWN ... The quality is not top rate. Skip to 4 m 12 s, and check Miller's expression at 4 m 32 s. I think Begala was a little harsh.

That interview seemed a little odd to me it was almost as if Begala was admitting a whole heap of positive things about Trump whilst still somehow being fundamentally opposed to him.

Its weird the people fox news has, they are not good debaters but they are good at one thing which is putting the other person on the defensive and sounding assertive.

This interview below is between Hannity and Pat Buchanan. He is so persistent in trying to talk over Pat Buchanan it is kind of hilarious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RGgpwqFpPw



Drake
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,436

20 Apr 2017, 6:56 pm

About Trump, if he wants to play a game of misinformation, he's going to have to throw some truth in there or people will quickly realise that it's just lies and ignore it.

The question is is there any value in doing that? I think right now he's trying to send a message to the World that he is highly unpredictable when it comes to warfare and totally different than his predecessors. I'm not sold on it being a good idea because then you have to lie to the American people. Just keep it simple, tell the people what is happening / has happened, not what is going to happen. "We're attacking this town." (with the attack already well underway) "We killed this terrorist with a drone strike." etc.