Page 4 of 8 [ 121 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Mitch8817
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2006
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,881
Location: Victoria, Australia

22 May 2007, 1:26 pm

JonnyBGoode wrote:
I can... but since I'm at work right now,

"... I'll get back to you, Gene..." :wink:


PM me if you could, I hate losing track of topics in the flood of things.


_________________
"Pray...NOW!" -Auron, before Bushido attack


Kosmonaut
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,253

22 May 2007, 1:34 pm

Mitch8817 wrote:
I am not aware of any 'absolute truths' existing (hence my use of ' ' in using the term). Can you name any?


'you are going to die' is an absolute truth.



Mitch8817
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2006
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,881
Location: Victoria, Australia

22 May 2007, 1:36 pm

Proving His existing doesn't force anyone to do anything. Further, I think God would be able to distinguish between those who would then choose Him out of selfishness or convenience, as opposed to those who are pure of heart and have lead a moral and great, albeit misguided life (such as me by religious reasoning). Let him judge me not on my beliefs, but on my deeds and the heart behind them - as a being of absolute fairness, that should make sense to Him.

And don't even get me started on the Bible. It's enough to say that there are alot of problems in that thing and much incompatibility in relation to modern society. And unless God Himself wrote the Bible, then we can't take it for face value. I assure you though, my mind is very open and was when I read the Bible.

However, I resolve to study the Bible if you resolve to study evolution and the words of Dawkins with an open mind. You will find that your mind has been closed somewhat by your strong beliefs and you will unconsciously and personally refute everything in those pages regardless of how 'true' you find them to be. Such is the nature of religion.

Oh, and don't play the name-dropping game, it doesn't prove much to me. Everyone has done everything if you look hard enough.


_________________
"Pray...NOW!" -Auron, before Bushido attack


JonnyBGoode
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 820
Location: Long Beach, CA

22 May 2007, 1:38 pm

Kosmonaut wrote:
'you are going to die' is an absolute truth.

Point! lol

Torturing babies for fun. Always, absolutely evil? I certainly hope so. That would be an absolute to me.

The very statement, "There are no absolute truths" is self-contradictory, as it sets itself up as an absolute truth.


_________________
18:33. Press 'Return'


Kosmonaut
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,253

22 May 2007, 1:42 pm

Now, absolute truth is a logical necessity ( otherwise consider the statement 'there are no absolute truths').
But there are some 'more religiously inclined' philosophies that argue against the existence of such absolutes. And i guess they do it quite well :lol: i can't remember it's a long time since i looked into this.
All for now, off to get high :twisted:



Ragtime
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Nov 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,927
Location: Dallas, Texas

22 May 2007, 1:43 pm

Kosmonaut wrote:
i have no idea. i am not on speaking terms with god (whatever that means) to know about his(?) intentions.
All i was saying is that this
"And that setup is actually intentional on God's part. He wants only those who want to believe in Him to know He's real."
is jibberish.

I mean read it over :P


It really does make sense, actually. In fact, I can't see where you're missing it. Was my sentence self-explanatory? No, definitely not. But the statement itself is correct.


_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.


Mitch8817
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2006
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,881
Location: Victoria, Australia

22 May 2007, 1:43 pm

The way I see it, what is 'good', 'right', 'fair', 'just' and 'true' are cultural phenomena. They change from place to place.


_________________
"Pray...NOW!" -Auron, before Bushido attack


Ragtime
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Nov 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,927
Location: Dallas, Texas

22 May 2007, 1:57 pm

Sopho wrote:
I don't see Christianity as being coherent at all. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. I don't like how they try telling people how to have sex either. Interfering f***ing perverts.


Well, if you listen to most Christians, you don't have much chance of hearing the truth, sad to say. Most think that since they have the truth, why put great effort into articulating it correctly to others, who probably don't want it anyway? So they throw out gross approximations and pat phrases to people's sincere questions. "Just live and let damn" seems to be their internal motto, to varying degrees. So if you want to understand anything about Christianity, you need read the Bible -- it's as simple as that. Bypass the Catholic Church, and ignore any doctrines you hear along the way until you go to the Source itself, and read it for yourself. Don't let other people (like me) give you the facts; find them for yourself, so that you'll know you're not being shitted. Don't be indoctrinated -- in any direction. Rather, read it, and then you will know what it says. (Anywhere in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John is a good place to start.)
www.biblegateway.com


_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.


Last edited by Ragtime on 22 May 2007, 3:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Ragtime
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Nov 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,927
Location: Dallas, Texas

22 May 2007, 2:08 pm

Mitch8817 wrote:
Athiesm may be 'too simple', but at least it involves a personal search for meaning instead of accepting given ones.


My best friend of ten years was a bitter atheist until the age of 18. (Side note: He was brought up in the Catholic church -- and rejected it when he accepted Christ, because he realized much of Catholic doctrine is in direct contradiction to Scripture.) He said he used to rail openly and vociferously against Christians everywhere he found them, telling them they were fools, and arguing his case passionately, trying to tear down their belief systems. He says he hated them. But, he said, through all that time, he was searching for the truth. And that's the difference. Some search sincerely for the truth, while others try to make the truth in the image of their preferred and/or present status. Jesus said He came to bring sight to the blind (those earnestly seeking the truth, who know they are blind), and to take away sight from those who see (the arrogant, who say falsely that they see the truth).

And Mitch, I don't think you can say that atheism necessarily involves a personal search for truth. Too often, it quickly concludes in not giving a rat's ass about anything. So reports my formerly-atheist best friend, who is now a very driven theologian and international missionary.


_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.


Mitch8817
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2006
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,881
Location: Victoria, Australia

22 May 2007, 2:16 pm

Ragtime wrote:
And Mitch, I don't think you can say that atheism necessarily involves a personal search for truth. Too often, it quickly concludes in not giving a rat's ass about anything. So reports my formerly-atheist best friend, who is now a very driven theologian and international missionary.


I was just making the point that for athiests, no absolute truths are given and they must discover, explore and make sound judgements on those they choose to subscribe to. If you say you're Catholic then you're Catholic all the way - it's all or nothing with their strong beliefs.

Thanks for the interesting discussion too, by the way.


_________________
"Pray...NOW!" -Auron, before Bushido attack


Ragtime
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Nov 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,927
Location: Dallas, Texas

22 May 2007, 2:21 pm

Mitch8817 wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
And Mitch, I don't think you can say that atheism necessarily involves a personal search for truth. Too often, it quickly concludes in not giving a rat's ass about anything. So reports my formerly-atheist best friend, who is now a very driven theologian and international missionary.


I was just making the point that for athiests, no absolute truths are given and they must discover, explore and make sound judgements on those they choose to subscribe to. If you say you're Catholic then you're Catholic all the way - it's all or nothing with their strong beliefs.

Thanks for the interesting discussion too, by the way.


Indeed, discussions are good. I personally know a girl who converted from a mainline conservative Christian denomination to Catholicism. When asked why, her answer was that it was more fun. Think she really believed?


_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.


Last edited by Ragtime on 22 May 2007, 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JonnyBGoode
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 820
Location: Long Beach, CA

22 May 2007, 2:21 pm

Mitch8817 wrote:
The way I see it, what is 'good', 'right', 'fair', 'just' and 'true' are cultural phenomena. They change from place to place.

So you are saying that for some culture, somewhere, torturing babies for fun might be 'right'? Does an entire culture or population embracing something as 'right' - make it so? Or can it be wrong, regardless of what the culture believes?

Was Hitler's gassing of six million Jews and millions of others, right? Right for their culture, but perhaps not for ours? Or is genocide morally reprehensible regardless of culture?


_________________
18:33. Press 'Return'


Ragtime
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Nov 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,927
Location: Dallas, Texas

22 May 2007, 2:26 pm

Mitch8817 wrote:
I am not aware of any 'absolute truths' existing (hence my use of ' ' in using the term). Can you name any?


Laws of Nature?

One can step off a dangerously-high cliff, and pronounce, "I subscribe to a different doctrine". Nonetheless, his body will soon subscribe to gravity.


_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.


Last edited by Ragtime on 22 May 2007, 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mitch8817
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2006
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,881
Location: Victoria, Australia

22 May 2007, 2:29 pm

JonnyBGoode wrote:
Mitch8817 wrote:
The way I see it, what is 'good', 'right', 'fair', 'just' and 'true' are cultural phenomena. They change from place to place.

So you are saying that for some culture, somewhere, torturing babies for fun might be 'right'? Does an entire culture or population embracing something as 'right' - make it so? Or can it be wrong, regardless of what the culture believes?

Was Hitler's gassing of six million Jews and millions of others, right? Right for their culture, but perhaps not for ours? Or is genocide morally reprehensible regardless of culture?


I'm glad you asked. Some things humans will find naturally repugnant and aversive, I think it's ingrained - if you want to know why, ask me when it's not 5am :P. From an evolutionary perspective, it would be that species propagation is limited if you go around killing babies. Others would say that such things as kinship and maternal instinct would naturally dictate that such things are 'wrong'.

Again, everything depends on circumstances. Is killing someone always wrong?


_________________
"Pray...NOW!" -Auron, before Bushido attack


Kosmonaut
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,253

22 May 2007, 2:30 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Kosmonaut wrote:
i have no idea. i am not on speaking terms with god (whatever that means) to know about his(?) intentions.
All i was saying is that this
"And that setup is actually intentional on God's part. He wants only those who want to believe in Him to know He's real."
is jibberish.

I mean read it over :P


It really does make sense, actually. In fact, I can't see where you're missing it. Was my sentence self-explanatory? No, definitely not. But the statement itself is correct.


Well this is how i understand what you said:

"And that setup is actually intentional on God's part. He wants only those who want to believe in Him"
You assume that 'God' exists, that 'God' has a gender ( male), and that you know his intentions.

"to know He's real"
so assuming he exists, you now say you know he is real.

Marvelous :lol:
You are right, it is not at all jibberish.



Ragtime
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Nov 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,927
Location: Dallas, Texas

22 May 2007, 2:31 pm

Sopho wrote:
Paula wrote:
there are far more hypocrits in people without faith then those who have faith.

How?


We're all hypocrites.


_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.