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JakeG
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22 May 2007, 4:43 pm

Ragtime wrote:
One's bad deeds are not balanced out by one's good deeds, anymore than brushing your teeth every day keeps your apartment clean.


Dang; now you tell us...my gums are red raw and bleeding and yet the washing is still in a heap by the sink.



Ragtime
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22 May 2007, 5:49 pm

JakeG wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
One's bad deeds are not balanced out by one's good deeds, anymore than brushing your teeth every day keeps your apartment clean.


Dang; now you tell us...my gums are red raw and bleeding and yet the washing is still in a heap by the sink.


Haha! Such is the futility of trying to lead a morally perfect life. And I forgot to relate that Scripture mentions God's standard for behaviour: perfection. That sounds high, but that's the norm for Him, and for all who live in Heaven in His direct presence. As light supplants darkness, so would God's perfection remove any sinful person from Heaven. No one is sinless, even after salvation, except by proxy. Deserve? We all deserve to go to Hell -- that's certainly what my works have earned -- so, best not make a stand on what we "deserve", asking to be judged by our works.

But, ya know, what a wonderful fantasy it is to imagine we are judged by our works -- if we erroneously believe are good thorugh-and-through. What's fun about that belief is you get to say, "Look at me, look what I've done, and how I've saved myself by my righteousness!" If such a claim were true, then that person would have every right to feel like they had done something incredible. (Even though all they would have really accomplished is a return to zero from negative numbers they generated themselves. Cleaning up your own mess is hardly a trophy-winning occasion!)

But the truth is, I'm a bastard, and so I'm so glad Jesus wasn't.



JonnyBGoode
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23 May 2007, 12:32 pm

Not to get off the subject - because this one isn't quite done and is going places - but this morning on my morning drive, I thought of another answer to Sopho's original question, "Why are religious people religious."

And that has to do with "the meaning of life." <Dun Dun DUNNNN!> Most people are uncomfortable with the idea that they are merely a collection of chromosomes that got here by millions of years of, basically, cosmic accidents, one building upon another. Like V'Ger in Star Trek, they yearn for an answer to the question, "is this all there is? is there not more?" It just doesn't sit well that here we are, with sentience, with dreams, hopes, aspirations, all of these gifts of intelligence... and our only real purpose here is to pass on our genes to the next generation. Am I, as an individual, truly insignificant in the great cosmic scheme of things? Does this wonderful self-awareness just snuff out when I die? That seems like a tragic and illogical waste to most people.

I think a lot more people are interested in religious things - even in what Christianity has to say - than non-religious (atheist/agnostic) people generally think. Here in the Los Angeles area, one of the most popular radio talk shows is a Sunday morning show called "The Jesus Christ Show," where the host - no pun intended - pretends he is Jesus for a couple of hours - and does quite a good job, theologically - and answers call-in questions. Los Angeles is hardly a Bible Belt bastion (well, except perhaps for parts of Orange County...), yet people are still fascinated with, and drawn to, the person and story and teachings of Jesus.


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skafather84
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23 May 2007, 12:52 pm

Ragtime wrote:
JakeG wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
One's bad deeds are not balanced out by one's good deeds, anymore than brushing your teeth every day keeps your apartment clean.


Dang; now you tell us...my gums are red raw and bleeding and yet the washing is still in a heap by the sink.


Haha! Such is the futility of trying to lead a morally perfect life. And I forgot to relate that Scripture mentions God's standard for behaviour: perfection. That sounds high, but that's the norm for Him, and for all who live in Heaven in His direct presence. As light supplants darkness, so would God's perfection remove any sinful person from Heaven. No one is sinless, even after salvation, except by proxy. Deserve? We all deserve to go to Hell -- that's certainly what my works have earned -- so, best not make a stand on what we "deserve", asking to be judged by our works.

But, ya know, what a wonderful fantasy it is to imagine we are judged by our works -- if we erroneously believe are good thorugh-and-through. What's fun about that belief is you get to say, "Look at me, look what I've done, and how I've saved myself by my righteousness!" If such a claim were true, then that person would have every right to feel like they had done something incredible. (Even though all they would have really accomplished is a return to zero from negative numbers they generated themselves. Cleaning up your own mess is hardly a trophy-winning occasion!)

But the truth is, I'm a bastard, and so I'm so glad Jesus wasn't.



^a good example for the other thread about if religion is needed or not. people such at this need a moral compass because they wouldn't have one on their own.

someone who doesn't truly comprehend morality so they adhere to what religion tells them.



JonnyBGoode
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23 May 2007, 12:58 pm

But how can you have a moral compass of your own... or even comprehend morality... if all morality is relative anyway? It's like having a compass to show you which way is North... but "North" having no real meaning, everyone's "North" may be in a different direction.


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Ragtime
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24 May 2007, 10:34 am

skafather84 wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
JakeG wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
One's bad deeds are not balanced out by one's good deeds, anymore than brushing your teeth every day keeps your apartment clean.


Dang; now you tell us...my gums are red raw and bleeding and yet the washing is still in a heap by the sink.


Haha! Such is the futility of trying to lead a morally perfect life. And I forgot to relate that Scripture mentions God's standard for behaviour: perfection. That sounds high, but that's the norm for Him, and for all who live in Heaven in His direct presence. As light supplants darkness, so would God's perfection remove any sinful person from Heaven. No one is sinless, even after salvation, except by proxy. Deserve? We all deserve to go to Hell -- that's certainly what my works have earned -- so, best not make a stand on what we "deserve", asking to be judged by our works.

But, ya know, what a wonderful fantasy it is to imagine we are judged by our works -- if we erroneously believe are good thorugh-and-through. What's fun about that belief is you get to say, "Look at me, look what I've done, and how I've saved myself by my righteousness!" If such a claim were true, then that person would have every right to feel like they had done something incredible. (Even though all they would have really accomplished is a return to zero from negative numbers they generated themselves. Cleaning up your own mess is hardly a trophy-winning occasion!)

But the truth is, I'm a bastard, and so I'm so glad Jesus wasn't.



^a good example for the other thread about if religion is needed or not. people such at this need a moral compass because they wouldn't have one on their own.

someone who doesn't truly comprehend morality so they adhere to what religion tells them.


I definitely have a moral compass. How did you conclude that I did not? Well, lack of information on the subject could lead one to that conclusion. Aside from why religion is needed, your post is a good example of why knowledge is needed. For example, one's religion is not his moral compass. A religion is a set of beliefs, whereas a moral compass is an internal knowing of right from wrong, which for Christians is provided by the spirit of Christ indwelling us. But there is no possible way you can speak to matters of the spirit world without being spiritual -- sorry.


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24 May 2007, 11:32 am

Evolutions moral compass is "what works go with it". From a practical stand point the "golden rule" which most logical non-sociopathic persons know without the
need for religious concepts is the only moral compass a person needs.



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24 May 2007, 12:51 pm

A compass is useless, if there is no direction for that compass to point. If everyone's compass points in a different direction, the concept of a "moral compass" becomes nonsensical.


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skafather84
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24 May 2007, 3:36 pm

Ragtime wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
JakeG wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
One's bad deeds are not balanced out by one's good deeds, anymore than brushing your teeth every day keeps your apartment clean.


Dang; now you tell us...my gums are red raw and bleeding and yet the washing is still in a heap by the sink.


Haha! Such is the futility of trying to lead a morally perfect life. And I forgot to relate that Scripture mentions God's standard for behaviour: perfection. That sounds high, but that's the norm for Him, and for all who live in Heaven in His direct presence. As light supplants darkness, so would God's perfection remove any sinful person from Heaven. No one is sinless, even after salvation, except by proxy. Deserve? We all deserve to go to Hell -- that's certainly what my works have earned -- so, best not make a stand on what we "deserve", asking to be judged by our works.

But, ya know, what a wonderful fantasy it is to imagine we are judged by our works -- if we erroneously believe are good thorugh-and-through. What's fun about that belief is you get to say, "Look at me, look what I've done, and how I've saved myself by my righteousness!" If such a claim were true, then that person would have every right to feel like they had done something incredible. (Even though all they would have really accomplished is a return to zero from negative numbers they generated themselves. Cleaning up your own mess is hardly a trophy-winning occasion!)

But the truth is, I'm a bastard, and so I'm so glad Jesus wasn't.



^a good example for the other thread about if religion is needed or not. people such at this need a moral compass because they wouldn't have one on their own.

someone who doesn't truly comprehend morality so they adhere to what religion tells them.


I definitely have a moral compass. How did you conclude that I did not? Well, lack of information on the subject could lead one to that conclusion. Aside from why religion is needed, your post is a good example of why knowledge is needed. For example, one's religion is not his moral compass. A religion is a set of beliefs, whereas a moral compass is an internal knowing of right from wrong, which for Christians is provided by the spirit of Christ indwelling us. But there is no possible way you can speak to matters of the spirit world without being spiritual -- sorry.



you only have morals set up as by how your church and your following their laws dictate your moral compass. you do not have the cognative function to do so on your own....you even freely admit it when you said "But the truth is, I'm a bastard, and so I'm so glad Jesus wasn't".

Quote:
whereas a moral compass is an internal knowing of right from wrong, which for Christians is provided by the spirit of Christ indwelling us


you essentially agree with me but mark it up with illogical religious rhetoric whereas i define it as what it is....moral compass is supposed to be a psychological function very much based off of empathy combined with the negative sensations and reactions. you have no such sensations and reactions so you adhere to the church to guilt you into having their moral compass and following their rules and guidelines. there is no spirit, it's called indoctrination.


i'm concluding that you couldn't come up with one on your own and that you can't make moral decisions for youself without the guidance of something like a church for which is why i say religion is still needed....i definately call for a reforming of the laws and rules because they're archaic and quickly becoming worthless and more of a detriment to society but i understand that most people haven't a clue on how to be good on their own.


if you had any knowledge, you'd know that i'm right about the moral compass and that religion has become a substitute for people who lack such a compass. it doesn't give them a compass, they just follow the laws like sheep and it creates a faux compass. it's like renting an apartment....do you have somewhere to live? yes. are you the one making decisions? somewhat. are you allowed to do what you want in terms of redesign and paint? hell no. you don't own it...it's just on loan. same with the moral compass provided by religion. unfortunately, they look to keep you in the renter's agreement through indoctrination.


JonnyBGoode wrote:
A compass is useless, if there is no direction for that compass to point. If everyone's compass points in a different direction, the concept of a "moral compass" becomes nonsensical.



the true compass is supposed to be empathy and how your actions affect those around you and your community. religion is a fake compass that creates a false community under the idea of a god...when really, it's just the morals of those in charge and normally those in charge are the ones who hold up the tradition first because...well...without tradition, religion falls apart because it's all a big sham.



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25 May 2007, 10:51 pm

Hi I'm back, Soph I'll respond to your question. I said I see more hypocrits outside my faith then in it. I'll explain, if a Christian says something is wrong, we are called selfrighteous or judgemental. More non-Christinans have said to me "Thou Shalt not judge" then Chritstians have. And when I say , "Read the next verse" I'm told that I'm forcing my faith down their throat, when I wasn't even the one who started quoting scripture in the first place. I don't drink, no verse says that I can't, but I choose not to. Why then when I've gone out with non-Christian friends, that if they drink, they make a big deal out of me not drinking???? I hear this, "It's a free country, you shouldn't have to explain yourself" yet because I don't drink, i get the ole, "Oh Paula, God isn't going to send you to hell just because you had a drink". And where are the athiest Charities? Where are their homeless shelters? They yell we Christians don't do enough, then when we do, we are critized. We are told we don't take stands, then when we do, we hear "Seperation of Church and state". Hypocrits in the Church will get reprimanded, oh yeah we have them, they make alot of trouble, sometimes they are told to leave, come back when they are willing to repent. One lady kept gossiping about other peoples teenaged children, yet her child.....well lets just say...OUCH! I mean really who was she to talk about other people's kids? So yeah we get em, we just don't, as a rule don't make excuses for them.



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25 May 2007, 10:53 pm

Oh I wanted to add something else. When my friend was dying of cancer, complicated by the aids virus, it was a Christian church that bathed him and changed his dressings. Where were his friends???? Ahh gee, I don't know.



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26 May 2007, 12:05 am

Paula wrote:
Oh I wanted to add something else. When my friend was dying of cancer, complicated by the aids virus, it was a Christian church that bathed him and changed his dressings. Where were his friends???? Ahh gee, I don't know.



cancer and aids all at once? what? was he chain-smoking and using dirty needles?



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26 May 2007, 12:31 am

Paula wrote:
And where are the athiest Charities? Where are their homeless shelters?



food not bombs is a great atheist charity who gives food to the homeless and if i'm not mistaken they also help them find shelter.



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26 May 2007, 9:07 am

I ought to check it out ska.



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26 May 2007, 9:21 am

I am a Christian because my own interpretation of both the bible and the facts surrounding it have led me to believe that much of it is inspired by God. My beliefs aren't predicated on not looking into things I don't understand and burying my head in the sand in the face of facts. I believe in evolution and my personal study of the bible has lead me to disagree with much of how it has been interpreted and taught (For example, I consider the stories of Adam and Eve and the Tower of Babel to be more parables that warn against the seeking of knowledge at the exclusion of common sense and the dangers of undertaking grandiose missions in the service of vanity moreso than a history of our species as I believe it has been incorrectly labeled).

I have really never seen athiesm or religion as a logical choice however. Really you are either believing in a God based off all the people who claim he has touched their lives and helped them along in some way or you are denying his existence based off an understanding of the universe which is still in its infancy. I know we have all these great brain scans and tests and many men who will tell me what a fool I am for what I believe and I have no doubt that if I were to hop in a time machine and go back in time to the ancient world and explain that the earth is actually round that the scientists of those days would tell me what a fool I was and prove to me with their level testing scales and maps that the earth is actually flat. Obviously, I could prove it to them with todays science but I would refuse to on the moral basis that I don't want to come back to my own time and find a world ruled by apes.

The only purely logical choice is to admit that we really don't know s**t about s**t. In the end my chips are on "There are more things in heaven and earth than dreampt of in your philosophy". Believe what you like and try not to be too much of a dick to others along the way.

And good job on trying to understand things from other points of view, Sopho. I wish more people would do that.



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26 May 2007, 5:30 pm

Hey Skafather, My friend who died of cancer, had skin cancer, no he did not smoke. He also did not use dirty needles. He was not an addict. Yes he was gay, but he was also a mortician,and once upon a time they didn't have the safety features they have in place now. Remember when aides first came out alot of mortuaries would not accept people who died from aides, they were afraide they'd get contaminated. My mom who worked with this guy use to tell him to be more cautious, she would say. "Bob I swear if you aren't more careful you are going to catch hipatitous," (I spelled that wrong) now whether he caught aides from his gay lovers or from his work, I don't know. Unlike you, I wasn't quick to rush to conclusions.And I still have not been told the names of the athiest charities.