I'm starting to doubt my lack of belief

Post Reply New Topic

For a while I have considered myself an atheist, but now I'm starting to have my doubts. Sure, logically there is no evidence for the existence of God, but I'm starting to see some truth in the argument that God could be outside the realm of science and therefore unprovable by science. We certainly can't prove that there ISN'T a God, which obviously isn't evidence in itself, because there is an infinite number of ridiculous things we could suggest that would all be impossible to disprove, but it is of course a possibility, and a possibility that is supported by some evidence such as near-death experiences, etc.

But logic aside, in life I tend to follow my heart and my gut feeling rather than my brain, so surely I should do the same here? And no matter how much my brain is dismissing religion as superstitious nonsense, I can't shake the feeling that I could be wrong. Maybe it's the fact that Christianity is so ubiquitous in our society. Religious references are in all my favourite songs, movies, books, etc. Sometimes it feels like I'm drowning in religion, if that metaphor makes even the tiniest bit of sense to anyone. I have friends and family who are religious. I was brought up as a Christian, because my grandfather was a vicar, and those church services made me scared of hell. Even though I'm technically an atheist, I've recently realised that the reason I am so terrified of death is because the Christians might be right, and I don't want to go to hell.

If all I saw was evidence against religion, that would be fine, but I also see the evidence for religion and the fact that a part of me is still telling me to believe, and I normally listen to that part of me, so surely I can't just ignore it in this case. If I were a Christian and I died and it turned out we all just disappear, there'd be nothing to lose. Yeah, this is Pascal's Wager, which my brain thinks is utterly stupid, but I'm not trusting my brain right now.

When presented with evidence for religion, such as near-death experiences, Jesus' miracles, etc, it feels like most of the arguments against this evidence are merely stories I tell myself to justify my lack of belief, which really kind of makes me as bad as religious people who dismiss evidence which conflicts with their beliefs. And if someone I knew told me they'd nearly died and they'd seen heaven or something, I'd probably believe them (well, unless it was one of the people I know who have a reputation for making things up to get a laugh out of my gullibility).

I am posting this here so I can get advice from different perspectives. Any individual person I ask is going to be biased either for or against religion, so I'm asking people in general. I'd really appreciate some help here.

Follow your brains, not your heart.

ruveyn

What you believe is up to you. Do what you thinks feels right for you.

On that note though, I wouldn't worry too much about going to hell. Unless someone comes back from hell and writes out a book with supporting evidence and such, I think there's not much to worry about there. Of course that doesn't necessarily disprove it either. I just think the idea of "hell" is a bit silly. I think people like to use it as a feel-good excuse for where wicked people will end up.

I wouldn't take NDEs as much evidence of anything. I've read that the neuro-chemical breakdown in brain death can cause hallucinations, similar to heavy drug use. If anything, it just shows that you'll tend to trip out when you die.

I myself have reason to believe in a spiritual world, but I haven't experienced anything to "confirm" one religions take on matters versus another so I just remain agnostic. I just believe science catch up and explain this other side of life... but it probably won't be in my lifetime.

i think that before anything existed, nothing existed.
if nothing existed, then nothing could become into existence except for a miracle.
the fact that there is existence in spite of the fact that there was not anything before anything existed is seemingly miraculous.
how did something pop out of nothing?
there was no original cause.
before anything existed, then there was nothing to cause anything to exist, yet existence is existing.
my circuits are not able to continue with out a blow out so that is all i have to say.

Exactly.


Studies show that there is, in fact, a predisposition to and benefit from having faith of some type. But at the same time, we know very plainly that religion is pretty much just wrong. So, instead, attach those faith inklings toward something that can help you. Try a non-theistic or polytheistic religion like Taoism or Chaos Magick where the focus is more on the philosophical side and on one's self rather than dedication to a specific god like the monotheistic religions. I prefer Chaos Magick just because the concept of 'belief as a tool' keeps it from establishing too dogmatic of a philosophy but still allows for ritual and meditation to be developed and utilized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magick

But ignore the picture on the page. I've never run across any chaotes who had clothes like that or did rituals like that. I've known many more chaotes like Grant Morrison.


That's, of course, if you feel the urge/need to attach on to something. If you don't want it, you don't gotta take it.

I'll relate an experience that I had that pertains neither to science, nor religion. But it is instructive as to what path to take.

When I was in my early 30s I had a series of Vending Machines. The one that paid the best was the one that I bought first: it was a combo snack/cigarette machine in a bar. It cost me around 5000 dollars.

For about a year I had this nagging idea in my head that I should get rid of it. I dont know why I was thinking that, as it was a cash cow for a poor Aspie. So, understandably my gut instinct was screaming "You need this money! Keep it!" It was a very visceral fear to think of losing that income.

I didnt listen to my gut. I sold that machine, and 3 weeks later the bar shut its doors forever, wiping out both the income and the value of the machine. You see, locations are more valuable than the machines themselves.

The bar closing was a total shock, right from the bar management down nobody had a clue the owner was going to do it. You see, the building that the bar was in changed hands; it was not up for sale, but someone made an offer. They didnt want a club.

Had I listened to my gut, I would have been stuck with a worthless machine, as I purchased it in situ. There were several incidences and occurrences unique to my relationship with that building that gave me subtle hints. I asked permission to install a debit machine and was turned down regardless of the benefit of the hotel/bar. I asked to purchase/maintain the pool tables and was again refused, something that would have eased costs and labour to the management.

The clues came together after the bar closed. The person that I sold to was talking with the property manager and she said that had he spoken with her first she would have advised against him buying.

Listen to your senses, to your intellect. The data that you glean from the world will serve you much more consistently than wishful desire and emotion. As Thomas Jefferson said:

By the same token, of course, question with boldness the lack of existence of a God; for reason surely benefits from investigation of its conclusions.

Since God is, by definition, supernatural (that is, above and beyond nature), there can be no solid evidence proving His existence. On the other hand, it's a fairly solid logical axiom that one cannot prove a negative proposition, in this case that God does not exist, as that would require one to have full knowledge of all data in the Universe - which, ironically, would require one to become God.

The only position that can be soundly supported by logic is agnosticism - basically, responding to the question, "Is there a God?", with, "I dunno. What do you think?" Both atheism and theism require a leap of faith at some point, to believe a position with no solid logic behind it. If you choose to make one leap or the other, do so, but do so in the knowledge that you are believing, not knowing.

And don't sweat the Hell thing too much - I have difficulty believing that any being capable of making something as wondrous as the Universe we can see would honestly care whether or not you sat in a particular building one day a week, so long as you treat His Universe and its occupants well the rest of the time...

Correct. The quote alludes that nothing is above skepticism.



Correct again. I arrived at my atheism through practice. I live as if there were no god, just as I live as if there were no 28th letter of the alphabet. I am, however, agnostic about the 27th.




A measly hour in most cases.

except what skepticism discounts is above it

One, don't trust your heart on issues of facts. You can go nuts with your personal life, buying cars just to burn them, but putting your heart over your head on truth is a dishonest act.

Secondly, you could be wrong about religion, but which one and why? I mean, it isn't as if Christianity is the only spiritual belief that exists, and it isn't as if even the set of all current beliefs is the set of all possible beliefs. I mean, "I could be wrong" is not a very good reason as shown by this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU (it has horses, not real ones though, but HORSES!! !!)

Look, I'll say this straight and clear: religion is a disease. It should be tolerated, just like we tolerate that some people drink alcohol, but it shouldn't be accepted.

Your "sense" is nonsense. You're longing for something spiritual, and I can understand that, but your reason is more likely correct here. Your "heart" is a liar, and following its whim is intellectual suicide, and failing to recognize this is inconsistent. If you convert to Christianity, you *will* have to recognize that it explicitly will tell you not to trust your heart so deeply.

For this reason, you have to recognize that if you trust your heart here, you will have to lose both your heart and your head. You will be killing both on a whim. If you trust your head, then you just violate your heart, and even then you will retain your identity rather than be brainwashed with all sorts of scriptures and the ideas of these people until you lose your authenticity.


Well, if we all heard a booming voice shout out "I am God, do you want to see a magic trick?" and if we asked for one it really did do magic, then I think we would have solid enough evidence to believe in God.

Secondly, one can prove a negative. The way to do this is to argue that some fact is incompatible with other facts. In fact, that's the direction that the logical problem from evil attempts. This might not be doable with God, but we generally do it with many other situations, such as to prove that John is not at the grocery store, I just need to find John at the bar. Through doing this, I've proven "John is not at the grocery store". Other examples exist, but I am not feeling creative enough at the moment.


My response is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_o ... robability

Just look at Dawkins' scale. Most atheists are agnostic atheists, who say "I dunno, but probably not".

Look: if you want a religious experience, go UU or something. Heck, become "spiritual". Any belief that leaves you to worry about hell is a belief you shouldn't believe.

I've been leaning more towards this one lately: I believe in God because God exists.

AG, that was an awesome video. Thanks for sharing it.

There are many different branches of Christianity which don't support the idea of Hell. I myself think it's possibly a metaphor. I wouldn't worry about Hell or death.
If you are starting to have doubts over whether or not you believe in God then I'd say the best thing to do would be to research and look at different religions and arguments which might help you decide...When it comes to religion a lot of people go with their hearts or gut feelings rather than their head. I think a mixture of both is best.

I see your point gina-ghettoprincess when you say that church services made you scared of Hell. I went to a Catholic school and the talk of afterlife made me a bit confused although I don't believe any of it now despite the fact that I believe in God's existence.

You're taking a Bible passage out of context to make your point. It's a rhetorical question, but Jeremiah gives an answer:



This has nothing to do with the head being divorced from the heart.

And if you're so inclined to pick verses out of context to make a statement, try this one:



Apparently an idolater's (the context here) mind isn't free, either. And before you say you aren't an idol worshiper, let's back up a bit:



No amount of human intellect is going to bring anybody closer to God. Only a person's faith will. If the heart and mind are deceitful and unrighteous and no one can know them except God, it remains that only God can repair them.

Even when God was among the people of Israel and delivered them from slavery, there was rebellion.
Even many of those who witnessed Jesus' miracles did not believe in him, but simply attributed it to something else.

Yet there are countless people today who believe in God, and that Jesus is the Son of God, who haven't seen or witnessed these miracles.

Romans 10:17 states that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Very awesome.


/i have the future true "god"