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Shahunshah
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30 Jun 2017, 6:23 am

SJW: Means social justice warrior. Typically these people are committed to progressive causes such as ending racism, black lives matter, LGBT rights and feminism. However the reason commitment is likely to be more to do with emotions rather than being done due to reason and truth. These people are talked about as being almost bigoted and closed off to different perspectives and debate dismissing them as racist.

Being Politically correct is when someone who believes in avoiding using certain language or doing certain languages to avoid offending others that is perceived to be damaging to certain groups. Like SJWs these people support progressive causes, feminism, ending income inequality, ending racism and supporting LGBT rights. However while someone who is politically correct are mostly left wing, they are not like SJWS as they do not share the same closed mindset the latter is known for.



Niall
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30 Jun 2017, 6:38 am

Shahunshah wrote:
SJW: Means social justice warrior. Typically these people are committed to progressive causes such as ending racism, black lives matter, LGBT rights and feminism. However the reason commitment is likely to be more to do with emotions rather than being done due to reason and truth. These people are talked about as being almost bigoted and closed off to different perspectives and debate dismissing them as racist.


I would take the position that racism, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, hatred of refugees and so on are reflections of bigotry, just as much as the ableism we see from the likes of Autism Speaks. The people I know who identify as Social Justice Warriors have a clear and detailed analysis, based on reason, for their position (which, as it should be obvious by now, I share).

If you want to read more on this from an Aspie perspective then the work of Lydia Brown is a good place to start. She's intelligent, educated, and very much not coming at the problem from a position of "emotions".

Unfortunately, the term "Social Justice Warrior" is being used as a derogatory epithet by racists, homophobes, transphobes, misogynists and the rest, who think that their nastiness should be given any credibility whatever. I despise them for the same reasons I despise hate groups like Autism Speaks. That's not bigotry: it's standing up against it.


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Shahunshah
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30 Jun 2017, 6:52 am

Niall wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
SJW: Means social justice warrior. Typically these people are committed to progressive causes such as ending racism, black lives matter, LGBT rights and feminism. However the reason commitment is likely to be more to do with emotions rather than being done due to reason and truth. These people are talked about as being almost bigoted and closed off to different perspectives and debate dismissing them as racist.


I would take the position that racism, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, hatred of refugees and so on are reflections of bigotry, just as much as the ableism we see from the likes of Autism Speaks. The people I know who identify as Social Justice Warriors have a clear and detailed analysis, based on reason, for their position (which, as it should be obvious by now, I share).

If you want to read more on this from an Aspie perspective then the work of Lydia Brown is a good place to start. She's intelligent, educated, and very much not coming at the problem from a position of "emotions".

Unfortunately, the term "Social Justice Warrior" is being used as a derogatory epithet by racists, homophobes, transphobes, misogynists and the rest, who think that their nastiness should be given any credibility whatever. I despise them for the same reasons I despise hate groups like Autism Speaks. That's not bigotry: it's standing up against it.
As much as I hate using the term SJW I will here. It refers to when say a person labels and dismisses Trump supporters as deplorable racists and disgusting human beings. It is when you chose the path of alienating and distancing yourself from people who may be ignorant and as a result upsetting them and avoiding a chance to sway them. This path has never worked once and it is something many people on the left have got to stop.

Of Course SJW is a pejorative and pretty badly named to say the least. A better word for the people described would be ignorant or a little prejudiced. I am worried that the term SJW can be very bad for preventing those who may care about progressive causes from being associated with them.



kraftiekortie
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30 Jun 2017, 8:01 am

I've heard the term "social justice warrior" being used in a sarcastic manner. It tends to be applied to people who seem to take "political correctness" too far.



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30 Jun 2017, 8:17 am

Niall wrote:
Okay, what do you think that agenda is?

Here's how I'm looking at it. As an Aspie, I want everyone else to accept me for who I am, and not have to change to fit everyone else's expectations. I relate to members of the LGBTQ community fighting the same battle against the same forces that want us all to be the same, and will expect us to pass or face shunning or murder if we don't. I don't see why a trans person should have to stop being trans any more than I see why I should have to pass as neurotypical. As in the second video, I want everyone to be able to sit down and start from that "common humanity", to be able to welcome those who are seen as different, especially those who have been through hell, whether war or discrimination.

I have more in common with those people than with a system that results in Aspies having an 85% unemployment rate, and hate groups like Autism Speaks spending vast amounts of money on what amounts to a eugenics programme.

The "Social Justice Warriors" you seem to hate so much have that agenda. Dividing us from those with a common enemy does not help our position, and it doesn't help us reach a more egalitarian society. I don't regard accepting members of the LGBTQ community, or refugees (or the physically disabled, or mentally ill and so on) as a cost. If we're going to argue from a perspective that diversity is a good thing, that has corollaries beyond the needs of the Aspie community. It means everybody, not just you and I.


Thier agenda varies somewhat depending on which SJW warrior and you ask because SJW is a phenomenon not an organized movement. While I agree that autistics face similar if not more hardships then other outsider groups SJW's favor I do not think most of them are our allies and frankly I do not want them to be. My defininition of SJW is not just those that favor Social Justice but who use intimidation and bullying to get thier way. As autistics we have been bullied to much to want to be part of a phenomenon defined by that. In favoring Autistic rights I want us to be allowed to be free to be who we are. Our mantra "If You Have Met One Autistic, You Have Met One Autistic" is the opposite world view then the enforced conformity of SJW. SJW's is known for no tolerence and shaming and punishment of people saying the wrong language or making a mistake any kind when dealing with women or other favored outsider groups. How is that anything but harmful for people with a condition defined by not understanding social ques?. Many SJW's are fragile or define people as so fragile that they need to disengage from the world. For Autistic people I favor the exact opposite. In order to have success in a world that is 98 percent not about us we need to engage with it while not losing our Autistic individuality. That requires strength not fragility.


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kraftiekortie
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30 Jun 2017, 8:40 am

There is the tendency for those called "SJW's" to take offense when none is intended.

And to feel "microaggressions" so small that the "micros" are reduced to the level of a "nano."



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30 Jun 2017, 8:47 am

I have called out the bad examples who react with hostility rather than polite explanation myself, as recently as this morning. Yes, there are those who will have a go at someone for an innocent mistake made out of ignorance, but once that ignorance is cured then yes, I think the rest of us need to be careful not to make those mistakes, and yes that goes for those people who hate or shun Aspies, and I have said that to some of them, again as recently as this morning.

Unfortunately, you remember the bad examples. Those described as SJWs are seeking the precise opposite of "enforced conformity", but when I see someone posting links here objecting to acceptance of refugees or the LGBTQ community then I see a problem, because that is a demand for enforced conformity, where refugees are left to die and those in the LGBTQ community are expected to pretend not to be, just as we're expected to pass as neuroptypical, or take the cures that so many seek supposedly on our behalf.

Likewise, I've been trying to get across the issue with seeing a failure of eye contact as a microaggression (this morning). I was as angry about that as the rest of the Aspie community. A lot of this is nuanced, but I think we need to be sitting down together and working out these nuances and going after the hate groups rather than each other.


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30 Jun 2017, 10:08 am

From my experience, these days both are pejoratives used primarily to offend. I've frequently seen them hurled at well-meaning people promoting inclusiveness. Whatever the historical context, they are frequently used now in a dismissive way in order to shut down discussion.

Basically, no one interested in having a mature debate will use terms like these (and this includes their politically-opposite counterparts).

Respect is a two-way street.


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30 Jun 2017, 12:14 pm

Niall wrote:
I have called out the bad examples who react with hostility rather than polite explanation myself, as recently as this morning. Yes, there are those who will have a go at someone for an innocent mistake made out of ignorance, but once that ignorance is cured then yes, I think the rest of us need to be careful not to make those mistakes, and yes that goes for those people who hate or shun Aspies, and I have said that to some of them, again as recently as this morning.

Unfortunately, you remember the bad examples. Those described as SJWs are seeking the precise opposite of "enforced conformity", but when I see someone posting links here objecting to acceptance of refugees or the LGBTQ community then I see a problem, because that is a demand for enforced conformity, where refugees are left to die and those in the LGBTQ community are expected to pretend not to be, just as we're expected to pass as neuroptypical, or take the cures that so many seek supposedly on our behalf.

Likewise, I've been trying to get across the issue with seeing a failure of eye contact as a microaggression (this morning). I was as angry about that as the rest of the Aspie community. A lot of this is nuanced, but I think we need to be sitting down together and working out these nuances and going after the hate groups rather than each other.




Language policing and shaming, disinviting speakers deemed triggering is "enforced conformity". And while these tactics have worked in the mitigating language in the short term it does not make anyone less bigoted. It is having the opposite effect, it has helped get Trump elected and some people are more emboldened now not only to say truly offensive things but also to commit hate crimes. This uber-emphasis by SJW's on politically correct language, microaggressions and so on distracts from dealing with actual bigotry.

I have no problem with the Autism rights groups forming alliances with non-SJW Social Justice Activists. Autism rights groups should also think about forming alliances with conservative/libertarian type groups. 25 to 40 hours of ABA for Autistic school children is a perfect example of government enforced thinking they despise and in a way the type of micromanaged coddling they dislike.


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30 Jun 2017, 1:44 pm

I don't think there's any fair argument against human decency - that it even needs discussion is a pretty sad reflection on our culture.

At the same time it's a mess that conversation on this, at all, seems to get routinely conflated with being about people who are pro-decency vs. anti-decency as if it's the only thing to be discussed or, perhaps cynically, it gets passed off that any objection - regardless of the 'purported' reason - is really anti-decency or blunt racism, sexism, etc. trying to imitate some clout of intellectual acceptability. That line of thinking smacks of religious orthodoxy accruing its power base and codifying its definitions of heresy.


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30 Jun 2017, 2:26 pm

The first time I heard the expression, narrative (aka social justice narrative, victimhood narrative) was from a police science course. It was being called a criminal narrative. Noone in the jail sees themselves as criminals. They are all victims, imprisoned unjustly. (Some are actually bad people.)

One of the things about dialectics, and social justice warfare, in general, is there is no winner, no goal, and no end to it, until you make a conscious effort, not to participate. It possibly takes some kind of security or borderwall, to separate yourself, mentally, from the narratives of others.

Possibly, my boundaries, policies, privacy, stress hygiene, spam blockers, etc, etc, are politically incorrect, so would become the subject of social justice warfare.



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01 Jul 2017, 10:19 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
There is the tendency for those called "SJW's" to take offense when none is intended.

And to feel "microaggressions" so small that the "micros" are reduced to the level of a "nano."
Don't forget being offended on behalf of other people.

Like that time about 15 years ago when some pasty white SJWs got them to take Speedy Gonzales cartoons off TV because they thought those cartoons were offending Hispanic people (they weren't).

There's something paternalistic and patronising about white SJWs telling minorities what they're supposed to be offended by.


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01 Jul 2017, 10:25 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There is the tendency for those called "SJW's" to take offense when none is intended.

And to feel "microaggressions" so small that the "micros" are reduced to the level of a "nano."
Don't forget being offended on behalf of other people.

Like that time about 15 years ago when some pasty white SJWs got them to take Speedy Gonzales cartoons off TV because they thought those cartoons were offending Hispanic people (they weren't).

There's something paternalistic and patronising about white SJWs telling minorities what they're supposed to be offended by.

Where a system unfairly grants more credibility to white people, white allies matter. People sometimes go overboard, but I don't want to listen to anyone quote their racist ass grandpa. I just don't.


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01 Jul 2017, 11:38 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There is the tendency for those called "SJW's" to take offense when none is intended.

And to feel "microaggressions" so small that the "micros" are reduced to the level of a "nano."
Don't forget being offended on behalf of other people.

Like that time about 15 years ago when some pasty white SJWs got them to take Speedy Gonzales cartoons off TV because they thought those cartoons were offending Hispanic people (they weren't).

There's something paternalistic and patronising about white SJWs telling minorities what they're supposed to be offended by.

Where a system unfairly grants more credibility to white people, white allies matter. People sometimes go overboard, but I don't want to listen to anyone quote their racist ass grandpa. I just don't.

White allies could be the first step towards whitesplaining.


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02 Jul 2017, 1:40 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:

There's something paternalistic and patronising about white SJWs telling minorities what they're supposed to be offended by.

It's called the SJW's favorite word, racism.


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02 Jul 2017, 6:31 am

Some people consider Lynch's "Making of a Slave" and Pike's "Morals and Dogma" to be of spurious origin.

Both are examples of infighting, in which agitators are a state interest.

These people are not independent -- materially, financially, or mentally -- not tending to primal survival needs, which would be provided for them, by their handlers.

Things like fuel, food, drinking water, and shelter, don't care what is your complexion, gender orientation, or religious faith, secularly speaking. But, you won't be minding those, for yourself, sjw's to either side of the political divide.