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magz
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26 Feb 2021, 4:38 am

Where I live, people still remember propaganda of "following the straight, bright path of the Progress".
It didn't turn out well.
But progress - or evolution - is inevitable. That's how life on this planet works.

The problem, I think, is the picture of "straight, bright path". It's actually ridiculous. Think of how organisms evolve or how technological progress is done.

Progress is exploring the unknown. Navigating uncharted territories - full of unknown opportunities and unknown dangers. You need to do it with your eyes, ears and mind open to things you don't expect.
Or, after someone else explored some patch, cauciously follow.


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GGPViper
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26 Feb 2021, 5:06 am

Well, reasonable people may disagree on what constitutes progress.

Unreasonable people may disagree, too, and tend to do so more vocally.

I recall growing up within a framework where economic prosperity and growth was basically the very (and only) definition of progress.

Yet now the world is dealing with the impacts of climate change, biodiversity loss and the real prospect of future generations being worse off than us... largely due to our very limited concept of "progress" as economic activity.



magz
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26 Feb 2021, 5:28 am

When you start from poverty and notorious shortages of basic goods (Europe after WWII, Poland in the 1980s, so-called "Third World", etc.), it's natural that "progress" is focused on economy and production.
But later, you come to a place with enough food to fill every tummy and enough T-shirts to cover them all. What now?
I think consummerism is a dead end of economy-centered progress stretched beyond the region where it makes sense.


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Pepe
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26 Feb 2021, 8:38 am

magz wrote:
Where I live, people still remember propaganda of "following the straight, bright path of the Progress".
It didn't turn out well.
But progress - or evolution - is inevitable. That's how life on this planet works.

The problem, I think, is the picture of "straight, bright path". It's actually ridiculous. Think of how organisms evolve or how technological progress is done.

Progress is exploring the unknown. Navigating uncharted territories - full of unknown opportunities and unknown dangers. You need to do it with your eyes, ears and mind open to things you don't expect.
Or, after someone else explored some patch, cauciously follow.


Yup.

'Evolutionary' progress is haphazard with many mistakes and dead-ends along the way. 8)
There is no objective guiding hand at play.



shlaifu
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26 Feb 2021, 10:07 am

magz wrote:
When you start from poverty and notorious shortages of basic goods (Europe after WWII, Poland in the 1980s, so-called "Third World", etc.), it's natural that "progress" is focused on economy and production.
But later, you come to a place with enough food to fill every tummy and enough T-shirts to cover them all. What now?
I think consummerism is a dead end of economy-centered progress stretched beyond the region where it makes sense.


In the soviet union, success was measured by productive activity and resource consumption. Trains would go in circles to drive up the quota of miles that goods were transported.
It's obviously a silly measure.

In capitalism, success is measured by economic activity, i.e., money changing its owner. Companies have figured out that selling imperfect products and then selling the solution - either through apparel or a new unit.
The most gainful occupations are the ones that are focussed on money changing its owner, without any real world connection, in the financial sector.
It's obviously a silly measure, but on the upside, consumers get stuff.

Neither way of measuring considers environmental impact.

It's also not clear whether there is "progress", except for the accumulation of scientific discoveries. There have been peaceful, free societies before.
Of course, you could argue they were based on slave labour, but our clothes and electronice are made by quasi slaves, our food is produced by low wage workers and illegal immigrants, and so on.
Human rights are a nice idea, but so was loving thy neighbour.
The most powerful nations on the planet unashamedly use torture and extrajuricial killing to get what they want.

Progress, if it exists, is not a straight line.
Evolution is not a straight line. Ask the dinosaurs.


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26 Feb 2021, 11:00 am

[opinion=mine]

An economy based solely on entertainment and hospitality will fail quicker and more drastically during troubled times than an economy based on innovation and production.

I say this because, right now, many thousands of people have been laid off from the theme parks, restaurants, hotels, clubs, bars, and concert venues in southern California, and the effects have spread to the housing and retail markets, as well.

By the time this covid crisis is finally over, California's economy should shift to more durable and resilient businesses (i.e., manufacturing, research, et cetera), or face many more years (decades?) of a recessionary economy.


[/opinion]


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26 Feb 2021, 1:20 pm



Progress is Balance

Look Around

And 'See'

'Who' Is Still Here
What Advantage
Do The Dragon Fly
Roach And Shark Still Have

Clue:

It Isn't

Necessarily Human Hehe
And Surely None of 'The Clothes' We Wear
Or Tools We Become Naked And Defenseless

Now We aRe

Do 'We' 'See'

'The Karma'

Of Our Folly Yet Balance is No Lie...

Balance Is Progress Balance Is Survival Balance Is Thrive
Balance Means 'The Lion Still Roars' in 'Deafening' Ways to 'See'



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