How many Trump supporters can be persuaded?

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JohnPowell
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05 Nov 2017, 2:34 pm

auntblabby wrote:
Obama never hired antifa to work in his administration. but #45 has general Kelly who perpetuated the lie that the civil war had nothing to do with slavery.


It's not really a lie. The only lie is that the war was about slavery. There were slave states in the north and Abe was a white supremacist who wanted whites and blacks separated and blacks moved back to Africa.


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JohnPowell
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05 Nov 2017, 2:36 pm

auntblabby wrote:
the people [like gen. Kelly] who maintain we should have "compromised" with the south, conveniently leave out the fact that such compromise could only mean maintenance and eventual expansion of slavery over the rest of America. hence, a de facto denial of slavery as a civil war issue, from a historical standpoint.


Most of the world gave up slavery without a civil war. First you need to educate yourself and realise the war wasn't about slavery!


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Kraichgauer
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05 Nov 2017, 3:26 pm

Powell-

People died in a war LBJ inherited, if that's what you're referring to about him committing mass murder.
And yes, the Civil War was about slavery. The seceding states made it clear in their declarations of war that that was the reason why they were fighting.
While Lincoln was hardly a modern day liberal when it came to the race issue, neither was he a white supremacist. While he had toyed with the idea of deporting freed blacks back to Africa, by the end of his Presidency - and life - he realized whites would have to learn to live with blacks. In his final speech, he said voting rights would be extended to blacks.
And yes, other countries had done away with slavery without civil war. But southern slave owners made that impossible, as their whole class/caste system in the Antebellum south was based on the number of slaves one owned. This same dehumanized system was largely supported by poor whites who had no slaves, as they could at least feel they were better than someone else (slaves), despite their crushing poverty.


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JohnPowell
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05 Nov 2017, 6:16 pm

'Aww, it's not my fault I killed millions of people with this gun, someone else had the gun before me...' Get a bloody grip!! ! Forget the treason part too did you?
Yes, he was a white supremacist who wanted blacks sent back to Africa, he used the slavery issue as propaganda.
See things get twisted out of proportion as time goes by, it'd be like saying the Iraq war was because Saddam had WMD'S. But luckily people are starting to learn.


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Kraichgauer
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05 Nov 2017, 9:25 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
'Aww, it's not my fault I killed millions of people with this gun, someone else had the gun before me...' Get a bloody grip!! ! Forget the treason part too did you?
Yes, he was a white supremacist who wanted blacks sent back to Africa, he used the slavery issue as propaganda.
See things get twisted out of proportion as time goes by, it'd be like saying the Iraq war was because Saddam had WMD'S. But luckily people are starting to learn.


What sources support your view of Lincoln? Please, legitimate sources, not any of that pro Confederate and secessionist bullshit. That stuff is entirely pseudo history written to support a white supremacist narrative.


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EzraS
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05 Nov 2017, 10:39 pm

I've heard plausible arguments based on recorded history saying the civil war was and was not over slavery. My take is that the truth is somewhere in the muddy middle.



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05 Nov 2017, 11:28 pm

EzraS wrote:
I've heard plausible arguments based on recorded history saying the civil war was and was not over slavery. My take is that the truth is somewhere in the muddy middle.


But who were those making arguments that the war was not about slavery? Did they harbor certain regional and/or ideological prejudices that they might want to back up?


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jrjones9933
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05 Nov 2017, 11:52 pm

If you want to split from your country, you have to send a letter giving your reasons. It's the American Way. Go read the letters which the Confederate States sent to the Feds. Most explicitly state that the reason is to preserve slavery. The others were more discreet. They refer to the uniquely Southern way of life, which completely relied on slavery.


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EzraS
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06 Nov 2017, 1:38 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I've heard plausible arguments based on recorded history saying the civil war was and was not over slavery. My take is that the truth is somewhere in the muddy middle.


But who were those making arguments that the war was not about slavery? Did they harbor certain regional and/or ideological prejudices that they might want to back up?


Not as far as I know. But I was more interested in the evedence that was presented.



auntblabby
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06 Nov 2017, 2:10 am

EzraS wrote:
The middle class / working class will know based on what's coming out of their pocket, which is true and which is false, no matter what CNN claims.

my present tax rate is 10% so no matter what that right wing propaganda spout forbes says, I will get a 1/5th higher tax rate courtesy of #45 and his minions.



LoveNotHate
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06 Nov 2017, 2:49 am

auntblabby wrote:
EzraS wrote:
The middle class / working class will know based on what's coming out of their pocket, which is true and which is false, no matter what CNN claims.

my present tax rate is 10% so no matter what that right wing propaganda spout forbes says, I will get a 1/5th higher tax rate courtesy of #45 and his minions.

It's possible.

However, you would have to be 65+ years old, and make between $12,001-$22000

Otherwise, the increased $12,000 standard deduction, or the lowered 15% bracket would more than offset that extra 2%.

If you don't itemize, and are younger than 65, or make less than $12,000 or make more than $22,000 than you're a winner.


My mom, +65 years old, works a low wage job, with her pension and Social Security income, she'll get an extra $1800, thanks to the lower brackets.



auntblabby
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06 Nov 2017, 4:09 am

what if you make between $12k and $22k?



EzraS
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06 Nov 2017, 4:43 am

auntblabby wrote:
what if you make between $12k and $22k?


My question to that would be what breaks such as subsidized health insurance to free healthcare, low rent housing, ebt, and the like, do those who make 22k or less get compared to others?



JohnPowell
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06 Nov 2017, 12:43 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
'Aww, it's not my fault I killed millions of people with this gun, someone else had the gun before me...' Get a bloody grip!! ! Forget the treason part too did you?
Yes, he was a white supremacist who wanted blacks sent back to Africa, he used the slavery issue as propaganda.
See things get twisted out of proportion as time goes by, it'd be like saying the Iraq war was because Saddam had WMD'S. But luckily people are starting to learn.


What sources support your view of Lincoln? Please, legitimate sources, not any of that pro Confederate and secessionist bullshit. That stuff is entirely pseudo history written to support a white supremacist narrative.


I couldn't find the speech, I remember posting it before when we were speaking about it though.


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Kraichgauer
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06 Nov 2017, 3:12 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
'Aww, it's not my fault I killed millions of people with this gun, someone else had the gun before me...' Get a bloody grip!! ! Forget the treason part too did you?
Yes, he was a white supremacist who wanted blacks sent back to Africa, he used the slavery issue as propaganda.
See things get twisted out of proportion as time goes by, it'd be like saying the Iraq war was because Saddam had WMD'S. But luckily people are starting to learn.


What sources support your view of Lincoln? Please, legitimate sources, not any of that pro Confederate and secessionist bullshit. That stuff is entirely pseudo history written to support a white supremacist narrative.


I couldn't find the speech, I remember posting it before when we were speaking about it though.


I truthfully don't doubt that Lincoln had said something like that... at one time, as he had entertained that notion. But he changed and grew as a President and as a human being so that by the end of his life he had reversed those ideas. So Lincoln's legacy of liberty is what really matters in the end.


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