The Reformation

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19 Oct 2017, 11:41 pm

Just a reminder, the 500th anniversary of the Reformation is quickly approaching. Mark your calendars for October 31, 2017.

Esmerelda Weatherwax
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19 Oct 2017, 11:43 pm

Ich kann nicht anders!

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kraftiekortie
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21 Oct 2017, 3:47 pm

How will the Lutherans celebrate it?

naturalplastic
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21 Oct 2017, 5:13 pm

And how will the Catholics mourn the event?

Kraichgauer
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21 Oct 2017, 5:29 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

And how will the Catholics mourn the event?

Actually, leading Catholic leaders have been taking part in the celebrations in the spirit of friendship and reconciliation. Even Pope Francis has called Luther a true reformer.

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21 Oct 2017, 5:40 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

How will the Lutherans celebrate it?

I know my own Lutheran Church Missouri Synod has a new documentary on Luther out, while a documentary is being watched at Bible Study in my home congregation. I'm sure others are doing more elaborate celebrations. I would think other Protestants will be remembering the 500th anniversary in some fashion or other. That is, with the probable exception of fundamentalist types, who damn Luther and Lutherans for being Catholic hybrids from Hell, and who identify themselves with the Anabaptists who they claim Luther and other Protestant leaders had persecuted. That's despite the fact that the Anabaptists were known for their violent fanaticism, such as when they took over the peasants movement, which Luther had previously supported, and turned it into a violent revolt, which Luther had to turn against.

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eric76
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21 Oct 2017, 7:45 pm

I suggested to our preacher that we should see if we could get a copy of the movie about the reformation that they showed in church on two or three occasions when I was a kid.

My guess is that this is the movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_(1953_film).

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21 Oct 2017, 8:41 pm

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Kraichgauer
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21 Oct 2017, 8:55 pm

eric76 wrote:

I've seen that, as well as the more recent movie starring Joseph Feines as Luther. But one of my all time favorites is a televised play I had seen of David Soul playing Luther, which was not afraid to tackle his unfortunate Antisemitic tirades in his last years which were filled with both his physical and mental decline.

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chromanebula
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26 Oct 2017, 12:29 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

And how will the Catholics mourn the event?

Actually, leading Catholic leaders have been taking part in the celebrations in the spirit of friendship and reconciliation. Even Pope Francis has called Luther a true reformer.

Agreed. While this Catholic mourns that Luther threw the baby out with the bathwater, encouraged sin, and split the Christian community in a way that makes the divide unlikely to ever be healed completely (at least by natural means), I think he had a point about a lot of stuff. Game of Thrones couldn't hold a candle to the corruption of the medieval/Renaissance-era Catholic Church. Selling indulgences (which, BTW, was abolished at the Council of Trent) was just the tip of the iceberg. Popes gave some important church offices to their "nephews" and blatantly sold others in violation of a rebuke (to Simon Magus, for whom simony is named) by Peter himself. One pope put the body of his dead predecessor on trial, cut off the blessing fingers, and threw the rest of the body in the Tiber. Drug- (well, alcohol-) fueled orgies in the Vatican, sometimes featuring naked boys, were common.

And the Church today has similar problems. Pubescent boys are still preyed upon by (a minority of) priests. Annulments are today's indulgences. I hope for a constructive solution, one that resolves these problems without damaging Christian unity (which Jesus himself prayed to the Father for at the Last Supper) any more than it already has been.

Kraichgauer
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26 Oct 2017, 12:38 am

chromanebula wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

And how will the Catholics mourn the event?

Actually, leading Catholic leaders have been taking part in the celebrations in the spirit of friendship and reconciliation. Even Pope Francis has called Luther a true reformer.

Luther encouraged sin? By telling people that sex in itself wasn't evil, or that drinking to excess wasn't the worst thing in the world?

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26 Oct 2017, 12:55 am

The more I think about it, the happier I am about growing up in a house with two competing forms of Christianity. It confused me a lot at the time, but now I understand that religion from multiple perspectives. I 'get' what both mainline Protestants and Catholics believe, why and how.

When I went to Berlin last year, I bought the Martin Luther Plamobil doll just because it was so weird.
I still get the urge to cross myself when a hearse drives past, though. I also used to love using mala beads (like rosary beads) when I was Buddhist, as well as all the rituals in Zen. The smell of holy water is very nostalgic for me. I find reading about saints and miracles interesting from a sociological perspective. But I've read the Bible a lot more than other people who've been raised Catholic, and can see the statues and images in the same way a Protestant would see them.

I'm an atheist now, but my upbringing influenced the way I think a lot.

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chromanebula
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27 Oct 2017, 5:33 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

chromanebula wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

And how will the Catholics mourn the event?

Actually, leading Catholic leaders have been taking part in the celebrations in the spirit of friendship and reconciliation. Even Pope Francis has called Luther a true reformer.

Luther encouraged sin? By telling people that sex in itself wasn't evil, or that drinking to excess wasn't the worst thing in the world?

No, I'm not talking about any specific sin, but the doctrine that "human beings are incapable of cooperating in their salvation.... God justifies sinners in faith alone [apart from any works] (sola fide)." By telling people that their works don't matter, you disincentivize people from performing good works, and (by removing the punishment for them) tacitly encourage evil works, i.e. sins.

kraftiekortie
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27 Oct 2017, 5:47 pm

What is your impression of the present Pope?

Kraichgauer
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27 Oct 2017, 6:18 pm

chromanebula wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

chromanebula wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

And how will the Catholics mourn the event?

Actually, leading Catholic leaders have been taking part in the celebrations in the spirit of friendship and reconciliation. Even Pope Francis has called Luther a true reformer.

Luther encouraged sin? By telling people that sex in itself wasn't evil, or that drinking to excess wasn't the worst thing in the world?

It's a common mistake to assume that Luther did away with good works. While he believed salvation was already secured for us by God's grace, earned for us by Christ, he also believed good works were naturally produced by those in grace, as they were moved by the Spirit, rather than doing it to get something from God.

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white_as_snow
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27 Oct 2017, 9:18 pm

Whats funny is that the feminist and left movement is doing everything they can to stop Islam from having a reformation.

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