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kraftiekortie
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12 Dec 2017, 10:34 pm

^^^^That will be cool to read.



Greatshield17
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12 Dec 2017, 11:23 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
I'm really reluctant to post this here, but I'm not sure where else to post this, I want this to be a peaceful discussion, not a debate.

Image

I'd love to go into both of these points and others, I'm sure a lot of people here who know about Our Lady of Guadalupe really like the Aztec symbolism of her apparition. But for now, I let everyone talk to me about Our Lady of Guadalupe. So tell me, what do you know about Our Lady of Guadalupe? Are you a fellow Catholic celebrating this Feast? Do you have a devotion to her? What do you like about Our Lady Guadalupe?

I thought I'd discuss a bit of the Aztec Symbolism present in the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, for anyone interested:

Angel underneath Our Lady: This symbolizes Our Lady's Queenship, in Mesoamerican culture, kings, emperors, and other authority figures were carried on litters by their people. The Angel underneath Mary, appearing to prop her up, is meant to convey to the Aztecs that Mary is the Queen of Heaven and earth.

Turquoise mantle: Turquoise, was a color that the Mesoamerican people associated with heavens and the divine. Thus by wearing a turquoise mantle, Our Lady is telling the Aztecs, that she is associated with the divine. However...

Head bowed, and hands folded: A more obvious symbol, but by having her hands folded and her head bowed, Mary is sending a clear message to the Aztecs that she is a human being, not a goddess.

Star constellations on Our Lady's mantle: The Stars that appear in Our Lady's mantle are in fact star constellations that would have appeared at the exact time and place when Saint Juan Diego have met Our Lady. Any Aztec of the priestly caste would have immediately recognized this.

Floral map on Mary's gown: The Floral design on Our Lady's gown actually correspond perfectly with the various, mountain ranges, rivers, lakes, and cities that surround Tepeyac hill.

Loose hair and Pregnancy sash: In Aztec culture, women who were virgins wore their hair loose on contrast with married women who were expected to braid their hair. Women who were pregnant in Aztec society would wore a sash above their navel. Mary has both loose hair and a pregnancy sash, showing that she is a virgin Mother.

Four Petal Flower: Though barely visible, on the navel of Our Lady's gown there appears a four-petal-flower. In Mesoamerican culture, the four-petal-flower, symbolizes, divinity, heaven and earth, the cosmos, the centre of the cosmos, and the sun to name. Basically the four-petal-flower is about as in meaning as the Greek word logos. For Our Lady to wear the four-petal-flower on her pregnant navel is to send a clear message to the Aztecs just what kind of God she's carrying in her, womb namely the Logos, the Word made me flesh.



Greatshield17
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12 Dec 2017, 11:24 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
^^^^That will be cool to read.

Yeah, I've discovered quite a few interesting things about my family's history, when I was searching around on Google.



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14 Dec 2017, 1:47 am

"Our Lady of Guadalupe" Celebrated Last Sunday
at the Catholic Church, I've attended since September
of 2013, without Fail on Sundays as I always come out of the
Church uplifted with the Natural Healing Force of Positive Energy
when a Church of Many in Positive Feelings and Senses Sing Uplifted
aS UNiSon in Choir of Angel-like together in Human Form as Essence real;
the Inner Human Multi-Verse that even Neil deGrasse Tyson Readily Admits
to a Famous Pop Star like Katy Perry that she now has more ability to Measure in
Her Dance and Song Art than all of what he and his Astrophysicist Friends can measure
reliably and repeatably with the Science Aided Human Eye; of course, with the Basic Tool of
the Scientific Method, too. Yes; "Our Lady of Guadalupe", Representing A Queen of the UniVerse
of Human Within is an Archetype of Pure Virgin Unconditional Nurturing Fearless Love as Highest
Human Potentials in all Humans as Science Clearly Shows we all come First as Females in the Womb
as of course in 'those' days only
myth of rib born Female
preceded the Science
of much Smaller HUman eyes.
It's Truly a Lovely Symbol and yes the
Details you Provide in Aztec Lore do relate
Many Inner Core Truths and Lights about the
Human Condition We Share and Give at the Highest
Levels of Cooperative Loving Success. Since Science fails
miserably as readily admitted by the most Popular and Well
Respected Among Scientists to explain the Inner Human Condition;
All Arts Serve to Enlighten us Better on the Art of Love and Life and the
Other Darker aspects of Life we share in similarities and differences too.
On my Desk, as I continue to Write Several Million and Something Word Poetic
Free Verse Bibles, Just for fun; my Wife has purchased many Comic Book and Big
Screen Hero Archetypes Brought to Life Greater than ever on the Big Screen now.
As of Lately, She purchased Figurines of Moses; An Archetype of Writer and Law Maker
in Systemizing Rules of Human Behavior as Religions and Cultures continue to do in Book Form
Rules now with Additionally, David, from the Old Testament as Warrior, Lover, and King Archetype
of Human Being too who often faced the Darker Shadow Elements of Being Human as storied in the
Bible too. Also, my Wife Purchased Mary, the Figurine of Virginal and Pure Motherly Unconditional Love
as I Often Lovingly Refer to my Wife Katrina as Egyptian Goddess Isis; not only for her looks that never seem
to age still at 47, like a real life 'Age of Adaline' Movie Actress in Real Life now; but how she willingly Loves me
as Wife, Mother, and Sister all in one even helping to put me all back together like a Humpty Dumpty too, when
I too Fell Apart, Losing Effective use of my Eyesight and Hearing too. Moreover, the Figurine and "Lady of Guadalupe"
Statue reminds me of how our Mother Unconditionally Loved us all through Life no matter what Darkness came in
me and my Sister who also is diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome as I am too. In Fact, at the end of Church, instead
of leaving the Back Pew to exit; I went up to the Front of the Church to take a Picture of the Large
Portrait of "Our Lady of Guadulupe" as stationed in Front of the Church in view for all. It's true,
too, Last Sunday would have also been my Mother's 83rd Birthday as she fell ill on her Death
Bed in Hospice Care at a Hospital on Valentine's Day earlier this year lasting
8 Days off of all life support then as attributed by her Doctor for her
Strong Heart for it is Science Proven True that Love Literally Will
Make a Heart Stronger in Beating Ways and Grief Will Literally
Break a Heart where an Unconditional Loving Heart will often
Raise one Higher in Love's Peaks of Higher Ground in
Flight oF LiGht more. And last but not least of course;
the Figurine of Jesus who many outcasts in Life
Have come to appreciate when reading
the New Testament and Jeffersonian
Choosing the Good Cop Parts that still exist; exclaiming
Matthew Chapter 5, and Verses 3 through 11 as Prelude
to the Beatitudes For Love. And Best of all, John 14:12 that clearly
means that Jesus is just a Human like anyone else for in that Verse it says
if you really believe in what his teachings say you, yes, you, can and will do even
Greater Works than the Story of Jesus for the Foot Prints of Love he actually left then.
Fortunately that's one verse I took Very Literally and did and still do too. My Mother wasn't
named Mary but her name was and still is Helen in my Heart and Spirit and Soul Still Living as
Love like that Travels much further in Children's eyes than just one lifetime now. And sure, in potential
even much longer as Flesh of Soul Becomes Art in Record too now more no less that what still exists of
as Nautilus Golden Spiral PHI Shell now. Not everyone is blessed with a Mother like I had and it's true
not everyone is cut out to do John 14:12, either. For this reason those two Archetypes of Humanity in
Male And Female Form Brought to Life in Story Form are extremely important for Helen left Mary
in Me and Raised Jesus in me too. Not everyone gets that gift in flesh and blood.
It's True; a Story may not be as Great as the Real Living experience now but
a Story, a Myth, a Statue,
and any other Abstract
Construct that relates the
very complex Inner Emotional
Sensory and overall Spiritual Life
of Human Being is Priceless in all Works of
Art that Still do come. It's true, my friEnd, for some
of us there is no need to Debate Love For some of us Are Love;
Born and
Raised as such.
Have a Great Now as Love.
If you can and will of course as
I sort of have an aversion to actually
directly tell folks what to do. And also
I usually exclaim too that other folks will do more
than me too; But it's also True if I do not witness it
as a Writer, A Lover, a Warrior, and an Archetype as King (sometimes Holy Fool too)
of Words too; not likely anyone else will care to pick up the Ball of Love i for one
Can and
Will BrinG even more.
And that's A Way Life and Love Goes for me, Real;
As my Personal Mary and Jesus; And Sure, David And Moses too,
Do Live for Real within me too;
Like A Fire
Work as Katy
Perry Might Dance and Sing too..:)


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The_Face_of_Boo
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15 Dec 2017, 2:43 pm

Kiprobalhato wrote:
in mexico (at least jalisco, where i usually go), one can't go ten minutes without seeing a depiction of the lady of guadalupe somewhere, people really do have a fixation towards her there and, when they immigrate here to california they take it with them. we've had several statues and posters in our home, though i wasn't aware the feast was tomorrow.

my mothers hometown has "fiestas patronales" every year for the patron saint of the town, i usually go there for 10 days but this year i won't be able to.

kraftiekortie wrote:
I saw a great movie called "Coco." It's sort of a Claymation type of thing. It's about how "The Day of the Dead" kept a family together.


CGI. stop motion is the forte of laika.


That's the Catholic culture, not just the Mexican, it's the same in Italy and Poland - in my country for example, the Maronite areas (Arabic Catholic sect of Syriac origin) are filled with Virgin Mary statues of all sizes, there's almost a small Virgin statue at the entrance of every bloc, in gardens, near stairs....everywhere.
Probably that's why the Maronites live in their own areas - isolating themselves, while the Christian Orthodoxes and few Evangelists live within Muslim areas, those two latter don't put statues (and they actually hate the idea of divine statues).


Image

Image



Greatshield17
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15 Dec 2017, 4:01 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Kiprobalhato wrote:
in mexico (at least jalisco, where i usually go), one can't go ten minutes without seeing a depiction of the lady of guadalupe somewhere, people really do have a fixation towards her there and, when they immigrate here to california they take it with them. we've had several statues and posters in our home, though i wasn't aware the feast was tomorrow.

my mothers hometown has "fiestas patronales" every year for the patron saint of the town, i usually go there for 10 days but this year i won't be able to.

kraftiekortie wrote:
I saw a great movie called "Coco." It's sort of a Claymation type of thing. It's about how "The Day of the Dead" kept a family together.


CGI. stop motion is the forte of laika.


That's the Catholic culture, not just the Mexican, it's the same in Italy and Poland - in my country for example, the Maronite areas (Arabic Catholic sect of Syriac origin) are filled with Virgin Mary statues of all sizes, there's almost a small Virgin statue at the entrance of every bloc, in gardens, near stairs....everywhere.
Probably that's why the Maronites live in their own areas - isolating themselves, while the Christian Orthodoxes and few Evangelists live within Muslim areas, those two latter don't put statues (and they actually hate the idea of divine statues).


Image

Image

Sounds like my home, I have several statues and images of Mary, and few statues of other Saints and I actually asked for more for Christmas LOL! Just as a quick side-note, I'd advise you against using the word "divine" to refer to statues, the term divine refers only God, or something or someone very closely related to God. Statues are at best of a sacramental level in holiness.



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15 Dec 2017, 4:11 pm

I am hoping The Lady of Cantaloupe visits on Christmas Day, bestowing great baskets of fruit to all.



Kiprobalhato
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15 Dec 2017, 4:25 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Kiprobalhato wrote:
in mexico (at least jalisco, where i usually go), one can't go ten minutes without seeing a depiction of the lady of guadalupe somewhere, people really do have a fixation towards her there and, when they immigrate here to california they take it with them. we've had several statues and posters in our home, though i wasn't aware the feast was tomorrow.

my mothers hometown has "fiestas patronales" every year for the patron saint of the town, i usually go there for 10 days but this year i won't be able to.

kraftiekortie wrote:
I saw a great movie called "Coco." It's sort of a Claymation type of thing. It's about how "The Day of the Dead" kept a family together.


CGI. stop motion is the forte of laika.


That's the Catholic culture, not just the Mexican, it's the same in Italy and Poland - in my country for example, the Maronite areas (Arabic Catholic sect of Syriac origin) are filled with Virgin Mary statues of all sizes, there's almost a small Virgin statue at the entrance of every bloc, in gardens, near stairs....everywhere.
Probably that's why the Maronites live in their own areas - isolating themselves, while the Christian Orthodoxes and few Evangelists live within Muslim areas, those two latter don't put statues (and they actually hate the idea of divine statues)

right, i see that now. i was in croatia a year ago and it surprised me, how much i was reminded of mexico when i saw the divine statues and depictions on display (several virgins as well).


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17 Dec 2017, 3:50 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Kiprobalhato wrote:
in mexico (at least jalisco, where i usually go), one can't go ten minutes without seeing a depiction of the lady of guadalupe somewhere, people really do have a fixation towards her there and, when they immigrate here to california they take it with them. we've had several statues and posters in our home, though i wasn't aware the feast was tomorrow.

my mothers hometown has "fiestas patronales" every year for the patron saint of the town, i usually go there for 10 days but this year i won't be able to.

kraftiekortie wrote:
I saw a great movie called "Coco." It's sort of a Claymation type of thing. It's about how "The Day of the Dead" kept a family together.


CGI. stop motion is the forte of laika.


That's the Catholic culture, not just the Mexican, it's the same in Italy and Poland - in my country for example, the Maronite areas (Arabic Catholic sect of Syriac origin) are filled with Virgin Mary statues of all sizes, there's almost a small Virgin statue at the entrance of every bloc, in gardens, near stairs....everywhere.
Probably that's why the Maronites live in their own areas - isolating themselves, while the Christian Orthodoxes and few Evangelists live within Muslim areas, those two latter don't put statues (and they actually hate the idea of divine statues).


Image

Image

Sounds like my home, I have several statues and images of Mary, and few statues of other Saints and I actually asked for more for Christmas LOL! Just as a quick side-note, I'd advise you against using the word "divine" to refer to statues, the term divine refers only God, or something or someone very closely related to God. Statues are at best of a sacramental level in holiness.



I meant it as "holiness representation" rather than divine as God related.

The statue things was always a controversial debate between Christians - I think the controversy goes back to Jewish roots.
My theory is, Islam and Protestantism are closer to Jewish roots and Judaism ideologically, notice how both of these two faiths hate the idea of statues.

While Catholicism certainly had Roman influence .

Christian Orthodoxy is in the middle in this, they love to paint their church walls with icons but they do not like to use statues much. My coworker, who's Maronite but married to an Orthodoxe, complained to me how her mother-in-law (Who's a devout Christian Grec Orthodoxe) keeps bothering her about the Mary statue in her house, calling it an idol. The differences between those two denominations are greater than I ever thought.

Funny childhood story: After the civil war in Lebanon and after the removal of the separating barrier between Western Beirut (Predominately Muslim + Leftist Christian Orthodoxes + Evangelists + Palestinians) and Eastern Beirut (Predominately Maronite Catholics / Grec Catholics + Rightist Christian Orthodoxes + others) - me and my best buddies back then decided to go on " an adventure" to "the other side" , we were like 10 years old, so we took a bus and went there for the first time in our lives, while we were walking around in there we have seen plenty of Mary statues are, I recall one of my buddies, out of ignorance, was like "why the Maronites would put statues of a veiled woman?" - we had to shut him up because he attracted unwanted attention.
Even though there were Christian orthodox and evangelist churches in West Beirut, we have never seen Mary statues in the streets before, it was our first time.



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18 Dec 2017, 10:13 am

Cool rock work on those grottos.


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20 Dec 2017, 4:50 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Kiprobalhato wrote:
in mexico (at least jalisco, where i usually go), one can't go ten minutes without seeing a depiction of the lady of guadalupe somewhere, people really do have a fixation towards her there and, when they immigrate here to california they take it with them. we've had several statues and posters in our home, though i wasn't aware the feast was tomorrow.

my mothers hometown has "fiestas patronales" every year for the patron saint of the town, i usually go there for 10 days but this year i won't be able to.

kraftiekortie wrote:
I saw a great movie called "Coco." It's sort of a Claymation type of thing. It's about how "The Day of the Dead" kept a family together.


CGI. stop motion is the forte of laika.


That's the Catholic culture, not just the Mexican, it's the same in Italy and Poland - in my country for example, the Maronite areas (Arabic Catholic sect of Syriac origin) are filled with Virgin Mary statues of all sizes, there's almost a small Virgin statue at the entrance of every bloc, in gardens, near stairs....everywhere.
Probably that's why the Maronites live in their own areas - isolating themselves, while the Christian Orthodoxes and few Evangelists live within Muslim areas, those two latter don't put statues (and they actually hate the idea of divine statues).


Image

Image

Sounds like my home, I have several statues and images of Mary, and few statues of other Saints and I actually asked for more for Christmas LOL! Just as a quick side-note, I'd advise you against using the word "divine" to refer to statues, the term divine refers only God, or something or someone very closely related to God. Statues are at best of a sacramental level in holiness.



I meant it as "holiness representation" rather than divine as God related.

The statue things was always a controversial debate between Christians - I think the controversy goes back to Jewish roots.
My theory is, Islam and Protestantism are closer to Jewish roots and Judaism ideologically, notice how both of these two faiths hate the idea of statues.

While Catholicism certainly had Roman influence .

Christian Orthodoxy is in the middle in this, they love to paint their church walls with icons but they do not like to use statues much. My coworker, who's Maronite but married to an Orthodoxe, complained to me how her mother-in-law (Who's a devout Christian Grec Orthodoxe) keeps bothering her about the Mary statue in her house, calling it an idol. The differences between those two denominations are greater than I ever thought.

Funny childhood story: After the civil war in Lebanon and after the removal of the separating barrier between Western Beirut (Predominately Muslim + Leftist Christian Orthodoxes + Evangelists + Palestinians) and Eastern Beirut (Predominately Maronite Catholics / Grec Catholics + Rightist Christian Orthodoxes + others) - me and my best buddies back then decided to go on " an adventure" to "the other side" , we were like 10 years old, so we took a bus and went there for the first time in our lives, while we were walking around in there we have seen plenty of Mary statues are, I recall one of my buddies, out of ignorance, was like "why the Maronites would put statues of a veiled woman?" - we had to shut him up because he attracted unwanted attention.
Even though there were Christian orthodox and evangelist churches in West Beirut, we have never seen Mary statues in the streets before, it was our first time.

Okay, sorry it took me so ling to respond.

"Veiled woman" that kind of reminds me of the time when I was showing off my statue of Our Lady of Hope to other Christians and when Orthodox guy asked if it was typical for Catholic images of Mary to have her showing so much hair? I'm not exactly share what the symbolism and customs are for when Mary is depicted veiled or showing her hair or not, but in regards to the Our Lady of Hope statue, I did after that discussion notice that there was some significant symbolism in the way Mary holds her veil and shows some of hair on that statue, namely it symbolizes her virgin-maternity, one side emphasizes her virginity, the other her maternity:
Image
Image
Image

There are a lot disputes between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox on many issues from divorce and remarriage, (Orthodox allow couples to divorce and re-marry three times) to the Immaculate Conception. (Both Catholics and Orthodox, have flipped flopped on this, in fact I know a guy who was originally Orthodox on the grounds that he was Thomist but converted when someone provided material revealing that at the same time that St. Thomas Aquinas was denying the Immaculate Conception, Orthodox scholars were writing material defending the belief!) I remember once stumbling across a thread online by an Orthodox guy complaining about Catholic beliefs on Mary and complaining that they were overblown. One of the things this guy was complaining about was that Catholics had the Immaculate Heart Devotion, that devotion greatly resembled devotion the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and thus the Immaculate Heart Devotion was to well, "god-like" (In a sense this is he was right, not because we worship/adore the Immaculate Heart, but because the heart symbolizes the will, not the emotions, and Mary's will is to the will of God) so yes, there are disputes between Catholics and Orthodox over devotion to Mary, mainly because Catholics have more Marian devotions and a more complex Mariology then the Orthodox.

In regards the use of icons and images and their relations to Judaism, (We may be getting off topic here.) that is based off of the use images in the Jewish temple, particularly the Ark, which is a type or foreshadowing of Our Lady as this video explains:
Hope this didn't go off topic too much.