Bernie, the only major dem canidate that is pro democracy?!

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https://youtu.be/yAT5XtyJeYY

the flak is always heaviest over the target.

This shows Bernie being the only one *opposed* to Democracy. His proposal, First Past The Post, is less democratic than a majoritarian system. With six serious candidates still in the running, Bernie’s proposal could see someone get elected with only 16.7% of the vote. In fact it’s probably worse than that as in the first round the delegates are assigned using state systems that are not fully proportional and in some cases I believe are FPTP. In other words there are exactly the same flaws as the Presidential election, which the current Democratic nomination avoids.

In Sanders’ defence I think his proposal to eliminate superdelegates has some value, but at the same time superdelegates work as a buffer against the party being hijacked, and regular old delegates can also use their own judgement after the first round.

A better system would be more directly democratic. It’s easy to see why the system is not already directly democratic- firstly failure of imagination, and secondly because you’d need some sort of voter registration system that would disenfranchise some people.

You’d also lose the benefit of a primary season that eliminates most non-viable candidates. I suppose one way around that would be to require every candidate to get nominations from a certain number of state party executives, affiliated groups, members of Congress, governors, etc.

Then party members could rate each candidate out of ten, or if that is too complicated, rank them. This would allow a leader to be determined without using unrepresentative, archaic delegates.

I think if you put it to Sanders then he’d probably say my system is better. But his proposal - “whoever has the most, wins” - is bad for democracy. Demand better!

How are the others opposed to democracy?

The argument is that superdelegates are undemocratic, as are pledged delegates who switch when the candidate they are pledged to is eliminated.

Taking that to an extreme, if Sanders wins a plurality of delegates and then dies on the morning of the convention, it would be undemocratic for the Democrats to run a candidate at all

Super delegates are further away from majoritarian vote.

Bernie was the person who stood up for democracy that night. Shame on all the candidates who answered in favor of supers.

Last edited by RushKing on 21 Feb 2020, 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kyle's Reaction:


https://youtu.be/oOy_FohuoYY

Sanders is only popular among 1/3 of Democrats.

FALSE

YouGov Poll

Sanders is only winning 1/3 of state delegates.

In California, he's only at 26%.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/ ... al-primary

okay, and? care to mention the numbers for the other candidates?

bernie. is. leading. by. over. ten. points. nationally.

who gives a s**t what 2/3rds of corporate drones think?

i am so sick of sleazy, bad-faith, misleading framing

That's what this topic is about.

Walrus explained it well.

If a candidate doesn't win a majority of delegates, then there is a second vote, and those "corporate drone" delegates can all switch to say Biden, plus super-delegate insiders can vote, and suddenly Biden is leading.

Sanders is in a weak position only having 1/3 of delegates.

Superdelegates alone are a very small part of the system and iirc no candidate has ever won due to superdelegates.

However, the question wasn’t about superdelegates, it was about whether the candidate with the most votes should win and whether there should be second rounds. Going on the first round alone would be much, much less democratic than having multiple rounds. I suspect Bernie knows this and is trying to rule up his populist base like Trump.

Let me give an example. Say Buttigieg gets 40% of the delegates, Sanders gets 35%, Warren gets 20%, and the rest share 5% between them. Under Bernie’s proposal, Buttigieg would become the nominee even though most voters are opposed to him. Under the current system, in the second round Buttigieg would gain about 5% and Sanders would gain about 35%. Sanders would become the nominee with a clear majority of the Democratic Party behind him.

Sanders knew the rules when he entered the race. All the other candidates are prepared to play by them. Bernie is the only one who wants to rig the race and make it less democratic.

Irrelevant, not only is does that poll contain results 4 weeks older than mine. National head to heads are the best indicators for popularity, because they give us an idea of where the second choices are.

The YouGov poll gives us good picture of how many US citizens the DNC would screw over, should they decide to ignore the will of the people.

Last edited by RushKing on 22 Feb 2020, 1:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

No, not in an election involving Bernie.


Yes it its. Just as much as other parts of the 2nd ballot process.



I would rather have Buttigieg win first-past-the-post than leave the door open for superdelegates determining the election.

Superdelegates are undemocratic and the electoral system as it currently exists makes it impossible to win a presidency as a third party or independent candidate. Bernie was the only person on stage who stood up for democracy that night.

That's how Democrats will choose defeat, but who knows, they might actually be bright enough to not destroy themselves. I'm not counting on it, but crazier things have happened.