Opinions on abortion?

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MissChess
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15 Jan 2018, 8:14 pm

nurseangela wrote:

Tim_Tex wrote:

MissChess wrote:

Tim_Tex wrote:

The Musings Of The Lost wrote:

Tim_Tex wrote:

I don't think it's appropriate in *every* situation, but I can't support any restrictions on it.

Elaborate?
Which situations do you feel are acceptable and which are not?

Appropriate: Rape, incest, danger to the mother, economic difficulties
Inappropriate: "it will no longer be all about *me*", birth control, immaturity

Disclaimer: Tim, I'm not meaning to attack your views at all, just to discuss them from a different viewpoint.

If a woman is shallow enough, or just self-aware and self-obsessed enough, that she would reject a child because sees it as competition for attention ("it will no longer be all about *me*"), I think she's likely to do a horrible job of raising any child she's forced to bear. It's possible becoming a mother will improve her as a person, but it's by no means a guarantee, and I'd be scared of what that hypothetical child would suffer growing up with that kind of mother.

If a woman is responsible enough to use birth control properly, thus demonstrating that she doesn't want children or doesn't feel capable of raising them right now, but her birth control fails and she winds up pregnant - again, that child isn't going to grow up in a loving, secure environment.

If a woman is too immature to make sensible choices regarding sex and birth control, I think by definition she's not mature enough to raise a child.

I hear a lot of people who oppose abortion saying, "Then she shouldn't be having sex!". (I haven't heard you say that, Tim, I'm going off on a tangent now.) I only hear this said about women - but women can't get pregnant alone. If all the men who oppose abortion decided they would abstain from sex, or choose sexual activities that can't result in pregnancy...I suspect there would be a significant impact on the number of women seeking abortion.

Upon reading my post, I didn't think the "immaturity" argument through, and I agree with you that those who are that way shouldn't be raising a child. I think they should try to be on the most powerful birth control there is, though.

My apologies.

Most powerful birth control is sterilization.

Speaking of which, do men here believe at some point it should be the man's place to get a vasectomy?

Although I'm not a man, I'd like to respond to this. (If that's out of place or disruptive, please tell me, I'm not trying to cause problems.)

I think any man who is certain he doesn't want to father children or cause pregnancies should absolutely go get a vasectomy.

When my husband and I agreed that we weren't going to risk any more pregnancies, which are dangerous to my health for reasons that don't really pertain to the topic, we looked at the risk for vasectomy vs. tubal ligation. Based on those risks, he got a vasectomy - he wasn't excited about it, but he was thoroughly convinced that it was less risky than getting my tubes tied.

Men who spout off about how women who don't want to get pregnant should just stop having sex often seem to be the same men who p*ss and moan about how they're not getting laid as often as they'd like. Pregnancy generally takes two participants, but women bear the vast majority of the associated and consequent risk (and expense). I struggle to reconcile the viewpoints.

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Mikah
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15 Jan 2018, 8:25 pm

VegetableMan wrote:

Mikah wrote:

Piobaire wrote:

Abortion is not "killing a newborn"; it's excising a zygote. Read some biology.
Don't like abortion? Don't have one.
Don't have a uterus? STFU

Don't like murder? Don't commit one...

An idiotic slogan. I can't be bothered with this argument again, my views are well known here.

Abortion is not murder, since the definition of murder is the illegal taking of life -- much like war and executions.

I wasn't drawing that particular parallel. I'm just saying, the slogan is moronic.

How about don't like robbery? Don't commit one.

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MissChess
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15 Jan 2018, 8:39 pm

Mikah wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

Mikah wrote:

Piobaire wrote:

Abortion is not "killing a newborn"; it's excising a zygote. Read some biology.
Don't like abortion? Don't have one.
Don't have a uterus? STFU

Don't like murder? Don't commit one...

An idiotic slogan. I can't be bothered with this argument again, my views are well known here.

Abortion is not murder, since the definition of murder is the illegal taking of life -- much like war and executions.

I wasn't drawing that particular parallel. I'm just saying, the slogan is moronic.

How about don't like robbery? Don't commit one.

I think the disconnect here may be in the categories you're choosing. Murder and robbery are both crimes. Abortion, currently, is not, so the comparison falls apart.

If an objection to abortion is based in religious views, the more accurate comparison would be something like:
Think pork and shellfish are unclean? Don't eat them.
Think polyester is an abomination? Don't wear it.
Think premarital sex is a sin? Don't have it.

...see the difference?

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Mikah
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15 Jan 2018, 9:36 pm

MissChess wrote:

In good faith I will try again. Pretend the year is 1960 and someone comes along and says "Don't like marital rape? Don't commit it!" It's not a crime in the 60s... is the slogan valid?

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Tibergrace
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15 Jan 2018, 9:56 pm

I do see it as murder, but I also have nothing against abortion. Better for both parties tbh.

funeralxempire
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16 Jan 2018, 12:51 am

I have no issue with abortion. Parasites have no inherent right to the host's body. End of discussion.

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funeralxempire
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16 Jan 2018, 12:57 am

VegetableMan wrote:

It's possible to be both pro-life and pro-choice. I've met a few people like that. It's a matter of understanding that no one has the right to push their beliefs on anyone else.

I would insist the majority of pro-choicers I've encountered fall into that category. They'd prefer abortion be as rare as possible, they may prefer restrictions on it, but they ultimately support it in some instances and feel it's the decision of the person requesting it and/or their doctor.

Personally I have no concerns over how common it is and feel it's entirely at the person who's requesting it's discretion. The only restriction I can morally condone is that doctors who aren't comfortable with performing the procedure can't be forced to perform them, whether that's unconditional (they're anti-choicers) or conditional (feel it's too risky to the person having the procedure done, or have moral qualms about how far along the pregnancy has progressed). The way I define the two terms this would make me strictly 'pro-choice' and not 'pro-choice, but also pro-life').

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16 Jan 2018, 1:12 am

I can think of no instance in which it should be legal, not even in cases of rape. The baby shouldn't have to die because of the sin of its father.

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Toucan
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16 Jan 2018, 3:14 am

Some people are getting heated about this.
This is meant to be about your own personal opinion, not what the law should be or anything.
Please keep the conversation civil.

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16 Jan 2018, 3:16 am

MidnightMoon wrote:

I can think of no instance in which it should be legal, not even in cases of rape. The baby shouldn't have to die because of the sin of its father.

Yeah thats sort of the way I see it, but at the same time the woman shouldn't have to suffer because of the fathers sin, so it should be her choice.
I personally feel it is better to just give the child for adoption.

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kraftiekortie
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16 Jan 2018, 10:03 am

It's nonsense to believe that a fetus is a "parasite." Very technically, I guess, it is one. But morally, it's not. It's a growing person.

Yes, I believe vasectomies can be sensible, and probably should be done under certain circumstances

But to mandate them would be wrong, just like it would be wrong to mandate that women take birth control pills.

Aniihya
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16 Jan 2018, 2:37 pm

Not a fan of abortion and am rather pro-life, however politically I am a libertarian and shouldn't forbid someone from aborting a fetus.

Sweetleaf
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16 Jan 2018, 2:49 pm

Well it is different than killing a new-born as the vast majority of abortions occur before the fertilized egg even develops into a fetus let alone a baby. I would take issue if late term abortions were the norm and encouraged, but that is more something that happens if its a medical emergency. I can certainly agree with a limit on how long one can weight to get an abortion outside of the medical emergencies but most places already have that.

Also pregnancy is a health risk in itself, sure maybe not as much as 100 years ago but it does have risks of its own, its still possible to die from childbirth, not to mention that is 9 months with rather compromised health and limited mobility...not everyone has 9 months to spare for that or is willing to take the health risk.

I guess mostly though I feel it should be a personal choice...I don't think it matters how I personally feel about it whether I agree or disagree with it when it comes to other people making that choice. I myself would likely get an abortion ASAP if I found I was pregnant.

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Sweetleaf
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16 Jan 2018, 3:02 pm

MidnightMoon wrote:

I can think of no instance in which it should be legal, not even in cases of rape. The baby shouldn't have to die because of the sin of its father.

But the women should have to suffer carrying it for nine months? regardless of any risks to her physical and mental health? I mean if she chooses to that is one thing, but forcing that on someone who just wants to terminate it and be done with it is sick. Also it takes quite a while for it to turn into a baby...starts out as a fertilized egg, than a clump of cells, than an embroyo eventually that turns into a fetus and than the fetus eventually develops into a baby, seems some people don't even understand basic biology.

Either way the women is already alive with feelings and thoughts, a cell clump/embryo may or may not actually go on to develop into a baby and it doesn't have any thoughts/feelings...so it should be her choice if she wants to keep it or not.

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funeralxempire
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16 Jan 2018, 4:16 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

It's technically not (after all, they are the same species as the host), however it's still an accurate description of the relationship. If someone (even another actual person, not a mere potential future person) needs to occupy your flesh to continue living, they live at your discretion. Period.

funeralxempire
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16 Jan 2018, 4:23 pm

Mikah wrote:

In good faith I will try again. Pretend the year is 1960 and someone comes along and says "Don't like marital rape? Don't commit it!" It's not a crime in the 60s... is the slogan valid?

False equivalency. Terminating an unwanted pregnancy doesn't violate any person's rights. Forcing a person to remain pregnant against their will most certainly does. Someone who is carrying and wishes to terminate has every right to pursue that course of action, regardless of the law (although if it's illegal, or if they are unable to find a medical professional to assist, they're not entitled to force another person to assist, as that would violate that person's rights).

Forced pregnancy is actually a much closer moral analog to rape than terminating an unwanted (or unsafe) pregnancy does. Both involve a person's body being used against their will and interests.

As an aside, being forced to carry a rapists offspring against one's will is essentially drawing the violation of their person out for the entire duration of the pregnancy.

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