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Mythos
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16 Aug 2018, 10:51 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Mythos wrote:
I find it near impossible to take anything Peterson says seriously after he unironically stated on Joe Rogan that people can only beat addictions by having spiritual experiences, and that drugs are evidence of spirituality. Like, wat.


He's said a few things lately that made me cringe. Mostly I haven't been wild about him pushing Shapiro's point that moral atheists aren't really atheists (he did this with Matt Dillahunty and it fell quite flat). As for spiritual experiences and addiction it's probably better to say that they *can* help people beat addiction, and even if he meant 'spiritual' in the sense that anyone taking inventory of their problems and needing to change direction - that would take the word too far from it's meaning to want to say it that way.

My general sense of him though is he's still, net of points like the above where he does self-eviscerate a bit, overall bringing a lot of really important and currently (or at least until he came on the scene) largely not thought of but crucial points to the foreground. A really good example is that we really haven't been taking our own inner mechanics seriously as well as how they effect politics, the way we live, or how emergent patterns form in politics usually in waves of what could be best described as subconscious archetypal themes playing themselves out in the public sphere rather than in a religious setting.

I still think he's going well with that overall, it sounds like he and Sam Harris had some great discussions and got to know each other better as people both during and after their public discussions.

One of the things I've learned over the years is that I can't, or at least would never want to, tune someone out over one or two missteps. I can take apart the value of what they're saying by cogitating it, holding it against the social or political anomalies that I see where what people say and what they do or what is happening don't match, and see if it stacks up. There are people both to the left and right who make plenty of missteps who I'll still listen to because occasionally they say something I hadn't thought of up that point and on evaluation it rings true.


You bring up some interesting points, and I agree that people shouldn't be entirely shunned for a mistake or two. However, for me it's a bit bigger than that. It's not solely because I don't trust Peterson for being a useful tool for the alt right, but the increasing concerns of his views on the holocaust and the like are largely what sell me the idea that he isn't to be trusted. There's also some beliefs that slip ups of him "accidentally" saying fourth reich instead of third reich could be attributed to a dog whistle for neonazis or holocaust deniers. Seems speculative no doubt, but it does definitely make me wonder. I don't know how likely it is that somebody just accidentally says fourth reich instead of third, especially a public speaker like Peterson.



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17 Aug 2018, 6:52 am

Mythos wrote:
You bring up some interesting points, and I agree that people shouldn't be entirely shunned for a mistake or two. However, for me it's a bit bigger than that. It's not solely because I don't trust Peterson for being a useful tool for the alt right, but the increasing concerns of his views on the holocaust and the like are largely what sell me the idea that he isn't to be trusted. There's also some beliefs that slip ups of him "accidentally" saying fourth reich instead of third reich could be attributed to a dog whistle for neonazis or holocaust deniers. Seems speculative no doubt, but it does definitely make me wonder. I don't know how likely it is that somebody just accidentally says fourth reich instead of third, especially a public speaker like Peterson.


I think that conclusion could only come from the outside looking in, which is where I think most people are at - ie. they've heard the name in the media a few times, they've heard what some people say about him, and where there's smoke there's probably fire. I started listening to him well before any of these narratives about him came up so I got to hear what he had to say as well about the fascists, Nazi Germany, Hitler, etc.. To the extent that he speaks substantially more about communism he seems to do so partly having grown up in the cold war rather than WWII (where the Nazis and Italian fascists were directly relevant) and what fascinated him in his youth was trying to tease apart whether the 'West' and Russia simply had arbitrary systems of value that they were fighting over, if so what did it say about human beings that we'd do such a thing, and if not what allowed for such a departure from normal human reasoning. Part of why he brings up Gulag Archipelago so often is because Solzhenitsyn did such a good job of describing what the big dreams of communism decayed into.

I also think Jordan as an academic has seen much more leftist overreach than anything on the right (add he's Canadian - they don't have any kind of substantial far-right) and he's also somewhat awestruck in the asymmetry we have culturally where we'd pillory someone for waving the nazi flag or wearing a Hitler t-shirt OTOH the hammer and sickle, t-shirts of Che Gueverra, etc. are perfectly okay where they should both be viewed as dimly as the person waving the nazi flag (ie. we have it at least half right).

The thing that I think Jordan and other guys in the IDW like Bret and Eric Weinstein are doing a wonderful job on is tackling the mendacity and sloppiness problem - and as of lately that's been an absolute killer. It's not just politicians or Marxist anthropology professors who don't care what's true and want to hold their tribe up as the supreme tribe, it's most people unfortunately on the street, and I'm deeply concerned that our tribalism could take us right back to another WWI or WWII type of discomfort. It wouldn't happen the exact same way again, technology being completely different, but we're seeing the rattling apart of both right and left and the identity politics game, really accelerated on the left right now with the right only starting to test the waters, is about compound fracturing of society and really the destruction of common ground. This is where I think what Jordan has to say about lobsters, ie. getting back to evolutionary roots of hierarchy as well as tribalism, really illustrates that we're trying to fight nature the way a Catholic priest tries to perform an exorcism and if we keep doing things this stupidly and telling ourselves that what we don't like about reality doesn't exist or that we can simply willfully beat our faces into it until it submits - we'll far sooner turn on each other and errupt into civil war because opinions on the matter will fractionate and the people doing this have to absolutely shut their ears and minds to facts that go against their dogmas or aren't sufficiently hammer-headed to keep up the fight to beat the territory into conformity with the map. It's a REALLY dangerous game people are playing politically and I think anyone who can speak at length should be up front with the IDW right now and having that discussion at the forefront of our culture.


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23 Aug 2018, 8:58 am

This is interesting, and I think it helps illustrate what he's tapping into. I get the impression more and more that a lot of people can't tell the difference between holistic thinking (people who'd take inventory of every factor) and what they might reflexively coin new-age woo. Perhaps it's true that when people are really used to one format of speaking sounding like one group, and another format of speaking sounding like another, they may hear someone whose like neither or some much more respectable place between the two camps that's really more nuanced with both but - not even knowing the particular viewpoint exists or could exist they'll drag that viewpoint in and lump it with whatever it most superficially sounds like.

It'll be interesting to see, over the next few years, whether more people than not say 'you know, professionals in every area he touches say he's either dead aim or only making errors in side details' and if that gets traction vs whether people will just say 'Oh, he sounds like x' and never try to figure out if they were correct in their guesswork.


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29 Aug 2018, 3:33 pm

Oh dear. A few weeks or months have passed, in which I kept reading and learning and now I feel confident in saying: JP understands Jung, and not much else.
He does analyze everything through Jung, through the terminology of Jungian psychoanalysis and... Well... Everything turns into epic, personal battles of good vs. evil through that.
It's funny, because Jung isn't really considered much more than an esoteric, even by Freud. But worse, it's esotericism from a hundred years ago...

I find his views on the Nazis quite troubling, since he's only analyzing Hitler - one person - without historical context. Which means, he doesn't talk about the German people, who saw their tradition and values threatened after the rapid change in society and were all to happy about a new story about the world, which connected to their old, no longer functioning story, which gave them an enemy and allowed them to stage a conservative answer to times of radical change.

I'm really worried about someone, in times of radical change, giving people a story that connects to their old, no longer functioning story, that comes with an enemy, and a hundred-year old image of how the world should be.
I'm not saying JP is as nuts as Hitler was, but they are, to some extent, doing similar things in times of comparable social upheaval (and economic crisis. Caused by the inner workings of the capitalist system. And I don't think trying to explain changes in society without looking at the economy and the way society is organized around production and exchange can lead very far. But that's exactly what JP is doing - looking only at psychology, and overinterpreting everything through the Jungian lens.)


Another thing that bugged me is his idea that a Pareto distribution of wealth is a 'natural law'. I.e., this idea that in a variety of human endeavors, distribution follows the 80/20 rule. 20% of podcasts get 80% of the listeners, and so on.
Well, if you keep 80/20ing wealth distribution, you'll find that 0.8% of people end up with 51,2% of wealth.
And the bottom 60% of people end up with 4% of wealth.
Now, JP's use of the phrase 'natural law' to describe this distribution suggests that, well, you can't break it. Like the law of gravity.
But if you broke the law of gravity, it would just cease to be a 'natural law'.

I'd like to state a 'natural law' here:
If a society allows 60% of people to own merely 4% of wealth, while 0.8% own more than half, it will create violent tensions.


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29 Aug 2018, 6:33 pm

Another person is Hitler :roll:


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29 Aug 2018, 6:53 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Oh dear. A few weeks or months have passed, in which I kept reading and learning and now I feel confident in saying: JP understands Jung, and not much else.
He does analyze everything through Jung, through the terminology of Jungian psychoanalysis and... Well... Everything turns into epic, personal battles of good vs. evil through that.
It's funny, because Jung isn't really considered much more than an esoteric, even by Freud. But worse, it's esotericism from a hundred years ago...

I find his views on the Nazis quite troubling, since he's only analyzing Hitler - one person - without historical context. Which means, he doesn't talk about the German people, who saw their tradition and values threatened after the rapid change in society and were all to happy about a new story about the world, which connected to their old, no longer functioning story, which gave them an enemy and allowed them to stage a conservative answer to times of radical change.

I'm really worried about someone, in times of radical change, giving people a story that connects to their old, no longer functioning story, that comes with an enemy, and a hundred-year old image of how the world should be.
I'm not saying JP is as nuts as Hitler was, but they are, to some extent, doing similar things in times of comparable social upheaval (and economic crisis. Caused by the inner workings of the capitalist system. And I don't think trying to explain changes in society without looking at the economy and the way society is organized around production and exchange can lead very far. But that's exactly what JP is doing - looking only at psychology, and overinterpreting everything through the Jungian lens.)

The nazi angle is too far up in nosebleed for me to follow. Maybe the only helpful thing I could offer - he would be offering antiquated advice if he told people to go back to church. If he's just pointing people at their firmware and telling them it exists and creates problems with or without their knowing that really won't be wrapped up with an expiration date until we've raked the whole human genome several dozen times with CRISPR Cas-9 to remove our worst defects.

On a side note - have you listened much to Bret or Eric Weinstein yet?

shlaifu wrote:
Another thing that bugged me is his idea that a Pareto distribution of wealth is a 'natural law'. I.e., this idea that in a variety of human endeavors, distribution follows the 80/20 rule. 20% of podcasts get 80% of the listeners, and so on.
Well, if you keep 80/20ing wealth distribution, you'll find that 0.8% of people end up with 51,2% of wealth.
And the bottom 60% of people end up with 4% of wealth.
Now, JP's use of the phrase 'natural law' to describe this distribution suggests that, well, you can't break it. Like the law of gravity.
But if you broke the law of gravity, it would just cease to be a 'natural law'.

I'd like to state a 'natural law' here:
If a society allows 60% of people to own merely 4% of wealth, while 0.8% own more than half, it will create violent tensions.

He doesn't gloat over it or consider it a good thing - rather it's a problem that needs to be dealt with in the context that it's what nature does and if allowed to go unchecked enough people stack up on the bottom to cause revolution. He says that time and time again.


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29 Aug 2018, 7:29 pm

I'm not going to share this cut as a pane because ThinkClub handled this in a bit of a tacky/click-bate way but, something really funny at 1:30 is a tweet from Richard Dawkins talking about how seminal The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt is, repeating the word 'seminal' several times. On one hand I'm a bit surprised he hadn't read it yet, it's at least six years old as far as I know but also I find it funny because so much of what Jonathan Haidt is talking about in that book is part-in-parcel with IDW thought. Maybe a few good words and Eric will give him is membership card and official secret handshake!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oVcptMYvQE


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30 Aug 2018, 8:06 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
Oh dear. A few weeks or months have passed, in which I kept reading and learning and now I feel confident in saying: JP understands Jung, and not much else.
He does analyze everything through Jung, through the terminology of Jungian psychoanalysis and... Well... Everything turns into epic, personal battles of good vs. evil through that.
It's funny, because Jung isn't really considered much more than an esoteric, even by Freud. But worse, it's esotericism from a hundred years ago...

I find his views on the Nazis quite troubling, since he's only analyzing Hitler - one person - without historical context. Which means, he doesn't talk about the German people, who saw their tradition and values threatened after the rapid change in society and were all to happy about a new story about the world, which connected to their old, no longer functioning story, which gave them an enemy and allowed them to stage a conservative answer to times of radical change.

I'm really worried about someone, in times of radical change, giving people a story that connects to their old, no longer functioning story, that comes with an enemy, and a hundred-year old image of how the world should be.
I'm not saying JP is as nuts as Hitler was, but they are, to some extent, doing similar things in times of comparable social upheaval (and economic crisis. Caused by the inner workings of the capitalist system. And I don't think trying to explain changes in society without looking at the economy and the way society is organized around production and exchange can lead very far. But that's exactly what JP is doing - looking only at psychology, and overinterpreting everything through the Jungian lens.)

The nazi angle is too far up in nosebleed for me to follow. Maybe the only helpful thing I could offer - he would be offering antiquated advice if he told people to go back to church. If he's just pointing people at their firmware and telling them it exists and creates problems with or without their knowing that really won't be wrapped up with an expiration date until we've raked the whole human genome several dozen times with CRISPR Cas-9 to remove our worst defects.

On a side note - have you listened much to Bret or Eric Weinstein yet?

not enough too have opinions.

what I'm trying to sayabout the Nazi thing is that there were more Nazis than just Hitler. And that not all of them were raving lunatics, but the majority was regular people who had gone through a period of economic and cultural turmoil, all toohappy to have someone give them a narrative that made sense to them and allowed them to keep holding the beliefs they had before the period of turmoil.
All problems that came through losing ww1, the great depression, and the sudden instability of a less rigid social hierarchy that came with the end of monarchy were compressed into one enemy- the jew.

peterson is not a raving lunatic. and when asked, he tends to be evasive etc. - but the western world is going through a time of crisis - capitalism no longer boes hand in hand with liberal democracy, globalization made economic hierarchies way more fluid, and there's a class of people who is definitely not profiting economically and their traditional, social values are not made for coping with this kind of change.
In comes Peterson, offering an enemy that is vague enough to stand in for all other problems: the marxist post-modernist.


shlaifu wrote:
Another thing that bugged me is his idea that a Pareto distribution of wealth is a 'natural law'. I.e., this idea that in a variety of human endeavors, distribution follows the 80/20 rule. 20% of podcasts get 80% of the listeners, and so on.
Well, if you keep 80/20ing wealth distribution, you'll find that 0.8% of people end up with 51,2% of wealth.
And the bottom 60% of people end up with 4% of wealth.
Now, JP's use of the phrase 'natural law' to describe this distribution suggests that, well, you can't break it. Like the law of gravity.
But if you broke the law of gravity, it would just cease to be a 'natural law'.

I'd like to state a 'natural law' here:
If a society allows 60% of people to own merely 4% of wealth, while 0.8% own more than half, it will create violent tensions.

He doesn't gloat over it or consider it a good thing - rather it's a problem that needs to be dealt with in the context that it's what nature does and if allowed to go unchecked enough people stack up on the bottom to cause revolution. He says that time and time again.[/quote]


well....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0iL0ixoZYo

here's the thing: Marx concludes that crises are inherent to the capitalist system, and that capital tends to accumulate.
JP says, it's the Pareto principle.
Marx has some analysis on what probably will happen (he doesn't say: go out and kill the capitalists), - his analysis is that workers will take over.
Jordan peterson says: it's the Pareto principle, not capitalism. It's a problem, and we need to do something to keep this in check.
well, as I see it, capitalism seems to be a system that allows the pareto principle to work. no contradiction there.
and there's something that needs to be done. no contradiction there either.
JP insists that " we don't know what to do about it" - and that enforced redistribution doesn't fix the problem. well, to me sounds like JP is agreeing that the problem is inherent to the system, but he does not want to consider changing the system.
fair enough.
But at the same time, he insists that Marx got everything wrong and that the marxist postmodernists are the enemies of civil society, for psychological reasons (resentment, most of all).

he says the leftists must be listened to, that inequality drives crime, but also he says the leftists are marxists and wrong.

I'm thinking Barnum effect...


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30 Aug 2018, 8:58 am

shlaifu wrote:
not enough too have opinions.

I'd really recommend working on that, as well as Jonathan Haidt. I tend to worry that people who talk like this tend to love the outliers and questionable voices who help buttress their views to the contrary but make a point never to have heard of or listened to the more credible or less controversial ones. I'm not saying you, it's just a pattern I've noticed and one you may want to do what you can to deliberately avoid falling into.

shlaifu wrote:
what I'm trying to sayabout the Nazi thing is that there were more Nazis than just Hitler. And that not all of them were raving lunatics, but the majority was regular people who had gone through a period of economic and cultural turmoil, all toohappy to have someone give them a narrative that made sense to them and allowed them to keep holding the beliefs they had before the period of turmoil.
All problems that came through losing ww1, the great depression, and the sudden instability of a less rigid social hierarchy that came with the end of monarchy were compressed into one enemy- the jew.

peterson is not a raving lunatic. and when asked, he tends to be evasive etc. - but the western world is going through a time of crisis - capitalism no longer boes hand in hand with liberal democracy, globalization made economic hierarchies way more fluid, and there's a class of people who is definitely not profiting economically and their traditional, social values are not made for coping with this kind of change.
In comes Peterson, offering an enemy that is vague enough to stand in for all other problems: the marxist post-modernist.


These are problems that seem to come from having listened to Peterson 'a little bit' for most people. I could talk about how many times he's pointed out fascism, whether in German, Italian, or Chilean form, as a pathology of excess order but I can't tell if that's pointing out his coverage or whether it sounds too much like backpeddling (especially where appearances probably mean a lot more than up or down facts).


shlaifu wrote:
well....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0iL0ixoZYo

here's the thing: Marx concludes that crises are inherent to the capitalist system, and that capital tends to accumulate.

JP says, it's the Pareto principle.
Marx has some analysis on what probably will happen (he doesn't say: go out and kill the capitalists), - his analysis is that workers will take over.
Jordan peterson says: it's the Pareto principle, not capitalism. It's a problem, and we need to do something to keep this in check.
well, as I see it, capitalism seems to be a system that allows the pareto principle to work. no contradiction there.
and there's something that needs to be done. no contradiction there either.
JP insists that " we don't know what to do about it" - and that enforced redistribution doesn't fix the problem. well, to me sounds like JP is agreeing that the problem is inherent to the system, but he does not want to consider changing the system.
fair enough.
But at the same time, he insists that Marx got everything wrong and that the marxist postmodernists are the enemies of civil society, for psychological reasons (resentment, most of all).

he says the leftists must be listened to, that inequality drives crime, but also he says the leftists are marxists and wrong.

I'm thinking Barnum effect...

I have a darker opinion on this perhaps. We have hundreds of millions of years of competing for survival in our firmwear. To date we haven't seen any country practice 'true Marxism' or 'true Socialism' because none will, and the only hope of such happening even in the next ten thousands of years is raking the whole human genome with CRISPR Cas-9 progressively, at least a half-dozen to a dozen times globally, to remove enough of that from our programming stacks where the baseline of culture isn't rating everyone's right to exist on a curve.

I really can't escape the sense that people who are ardently pro-Marxism in a way any more expansive than western European or Nordic models of mixed capitalism and strong social programs are really having a private war with reality, one that they're not going to win. They can't accept what's at the boiler plate of this experience, it's too dark either for their tastes or for them to survive what they're personally going through while believing, and they're spilling their cognitive dissonance out on the rest of us in a way that we're asked to take their coping mechanisms as if they were an offering of scientific fact.

I'm not going to say that there aren't more in-roads that can be made with finding better ways to do government programs or using, lets say, AI or other techniques to make them even more helpful and responsive. I think we should look into everything we can to avoid burning most of humanity in the engine of progress simply because they've become 'obsolete' in the work world. At the same time I have very little trust in invasive top-down approaches. Top-down might be a good way to start a sewage system where none previously existed, or a subway system where none existed, or internet where none existed. Government is good at establishing new biomes and frameworks for grassroots to re-fashion in its own way and if it's a system with dangerous byproducts government regulates the confines and limits, that works. This is why I'd be on board with UBI - it's the private individual doing something with the money rather than a bureaucrat deciding what will be done with it. On the other hand top-heavy central planning seems to fail miserably and mostly because it's either unresponsive to local climate or worse, responds in ways that are perceptively insular to those running it.

I don't think any sort of deliberate falsehood or lying is needed to say that on one hand you need the left to establish the safety nets and on the other you need to let creativity run for the sake of innovation. To say that radical deconstructionists are enimical to our western cultural project isn't synonymous with saying that everyone on the left is the problem. This is again part of why I'd have to recommend Bret and Eric Weinstein, and why I'd also recommend looking at interviews like Dave Rubin's with Bret and Eric to also catch what they think of Jordan Peterson and how they'd evaluate where he's coming from.

It won't entirely surprise me if the accusation comes up that Bret and Eric Weinstein and Jonathan Haidt are 'good progressives' like Blair White or Theron Meyer are 'good trannies' or Thomas Sowell and Larry Elder are 'good negros' but we'd have to actually unpack whether or not they're token points of political agreement for the right or a gateway drug to the right or whether they're simply a different part of the left with a different set of ideas on how the left should exercise its function. If Dawkins is singing the praises of Haidt's The Righteous Mind we might have to also sort out whether we'd lump Sam, Richard, Michael Shermer in as 'good atheists'. I worry that with the political climate reality's slipping right through people's fingertips and people are using such ways of thinking to accelerate that unraveling and/or wash their hands of nuance.


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30 Aug 2018, 10:51 am

A Fear of some kind of Marxist Revolution From the Ivory Tower of Canadian Colleges is just about as Black and White in 'Neurotic' Thinking that i've Seen among any so-called 'Respectable Intellectuals'. Yes, it's Philosophy; but no; no one in the 'Real World' that and who amounts to any real concern is actually pushing an Actual Marxist Ideology as we are not
Seeing any Political Parties rising to anything close to that occasion in reality of how it was twisted before, here.

In this Way, Jordan Peterson sees the World through Preconceived; and yes, very Dark Colored Glasses as Life
as one of Suffering when folks who accommodate the Struggles in Life now at this very moment are Living
in Paradise all around the World they Co-Create; in yes, a 'Post Modernist' way too out of Material Reductionism
too. 'The Guy' Has Suffered from Depression all his life; no 'reason', not to understand this is A Really big reason
why He Views the Human Race as a Species of 'Raping Pillaging Ape', rather than A Bonobo-Like Altruistic
Creature at core that and who at Best Gives and Shares with each other in Much Smaller Societies
as Villages where there is Plentiful Common Binds and Bonds of Meaning and Purpose for folks who
need each other and cannot rely on Tools to Replace the Human Touch For True Human Abundance.

Yes, we are a Sick Society at Large; but still at core are a very Loving Hugging Touching Human
Species when Living in Balance out of the 'chaos' of Material Reductionism where we become
the Tools We Use More than Flesh and Blood Hugs and Touch to Get Subsist Survive Done For Thrive.

And Ironically, at Least, Jordan Peterson Understands, at least, A Very Basic Core Need of Human Beings to
Bind and Bond over Narrating Stories of Life that actually Bring a Bond of Binds Full of Meaning and Purpose
where the Holy and Sacred are not just Words but Divine Feelings and Senses of Agape Love for not only each
other but the Rest of Existence too; A State of Being Love that is Real and Agape for all too; in other words, what
Sam Harris in the attached Video might Metaphor as 'The Kiss of Jesus' that sadly and truthfully some folks
who are too trapped in the Frontal Neo-Cortex of their 'left brain thinking verbal speak mind' may never
come to actually experience any other way but through External Psychedelic Substances to Give them
A Boost away from a very limited area of their Human Potential in both Greater Mind and Body
Balance.

Science is catching up in terms of "Transient Hypo-Frontality"; and even Sam Harris admits that
Folks experience 'this oneness' in Church when 'Properly' Ascending and Transcending the
Neo-Cortical Way of 'think' in 'Mechanical Cognition' that brings forth many of the Tools we
use now; and have in metaphor become too, as extensions of our Flesh and Blood as Science
Shows, this is a 'real thing' too; As it's also true in terms like 'Autotelic'; so far away from what Jordan
Peterson sees as A Nasty Struggle of Life; some Humans Actually Find a Practice of Life through Seek and Find
in what they tailor to work for them; A Way Of Life wHere they through Relative Free Will Generate their own Intrinsic
Rewards in a Cocktail of all Five Pleasurable Neurochemicals at Hand within always in this Generation now with yes,
Neurohormones to boot to Satisfy the Passions and Lusts of Life too in 'Shadow Balance' with this Agape Feeling and Sense of Being Always in the Eternal Now Of Love. Jordan Peterson, Speaks to this Greater Human Reality too but I Highlight Speak more than Experience; for, if, He actually experienced this Real Science Assessed Kingdom of Heaven now
His outlook would not be depressed; and his give and share would be much more smile than frown. True, still, now, yes,
Jordan
Peterson
Struggles
and i for one
can and will surely
relate to that Hell spent
tHere as a shut-in in my
Bedroom For 66 Months
with the worst of Depressions
and Severe Anxieties understood to
Humankind too along with Pain Beyond
what most folks can possibly understand
with Type Two Trigeminal Neuralgia from Wake to Sleep;
And i must admit in my View, the World S88ked then too; but it was just as true today as it was then that other folks
Were Living in their own Style of Heaven now with or without many Goods of Capitalism too; but always with a Few Good Friends that they could and can and will Feel a Warm and Fuzzy Connection with of 'Real Love' too. There truly are many
Nuances of Life; Ranging from DaRk Abyss Black Nights to Years of the Soul through Purgatory Grey SHades now
to Beyond Rainbow Nuancing Colors and Flavors of Heaven now too. No Doubt to me; Jordan Lives in Purgatory
Now; no doubt, some folks live in the Depths of Hell now; and also, no doubt that some folks Live in Heaven just
Now for the Sake of Doing Heaven Now Without Regard to taking anything more than they give from anyone
still as this is A Human Way that works; and we still Live in A Country that Paves the way for
those who individually find it. But to lose a way, in not insuring more People find their
Way to Heaven is simply Ignorance of the Potential of Heaven yet, still to be, now.

In Years Past, many folks would have named me insane for speaking like
this; but i can point to research studies that back every F in thing i say
up as about as close to the Facts of Real Life in Love as they get.
In Years past, before then, Folks would have cherished more of
This Way of Life Simply for they were Naturally Lost from all
the Tools; all the Clothes of the Labyrinth of
Cultures Grown so Large away from the
All Natural Force of Love within
N A K E D Free in metaphor
to give and share so much
more than a Tool';
A Cold
Trumpian Tool;
True too, Trump overall is a 'Gift'
To Free 'Verse' coming out of DaRk into Light too.

I Would Love to Chat with Jordan one day; but sadly
he is still too much in a 'butthurt state of mind and body
and soul'; to likely understand half of what i feel and sense of ReaLiTY Still;

So Much More than Speak, 'it is'.

Not his fault alone;
Life's like that too; it's
Not Fair; And That is what mostly
Drives Folks to Lift others up who've Made The Currency; "The Law''; Yes, The Grade of LoVE.

And So Many Folks Live in this Place of Heaven who have no Way to ARTiculate it;
even close to those who are so-called
Smart
with
neither
Art of heART
or that other 'thing', smART.
Meanwhile, Folks Like Jordan, continue to sink in Ivory Towers of Spiffy Words
with little to no Essence of 'SoUL ReaL', NoW as LoVE.

He Has A Much Greater Human Potential, now too.
I Feel and Sense He Feels and Senses it Vaguely; but still, As Real As 'it' Gets Now 'more real'; to Borrow a Quote from him too that rarely makes sense or 'feel more' to other 'Left Brain Stuck in Speak Folks', too; lost from another side of an
Opaque Window of 'Human All Natural SouL More, Now''; Yes, to be Clear; i Spent Years like 'this' And That s88ked too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOET9n8wnmo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk_sAHh9s08


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01 Sep 2018, 10:07 pm


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03 Sep 2018, 12:27 pm

I enjoy listening to 'these' YouTube Events; particularly the Latest ones by Peterson and Harris as they both keep each other ''Honest"; and to be clear I sense and feel that both of them really Believe in their Philosophies and Politics and
Spirituality; and are not in this strictly for a Money Making Project of whatever it takes as that is mostly what You
Tube and just about everything else is all about beyond those who Truly Seek what they Name as Truth as Love.

On the other Hand, this entire '2 Hours Plus Ted Talk' And Politics and Spirituality And in General Philosophy Talk
is in itself Bait for Intellectual Elites above and beyond the Assessed Science Average of Modernized Commercialized
Attention Spans of Less than the Average Gold Fish in Studies that are Real in Terms of Human Attention Span now.

But see, there is still another Hand Still; while I will easily Breeze through one of these 2 Hour Intellectual Events
to Stimulate the Dopamine in my Mind as Hell no I don't need any Serotonin or Oxytocin as a Literal so-called
Public Dance Legend will get even too much at a Place Like Super Walmart after doing that for Close to 10K
Miles in 5 Years now where if it gets like that I move on to Dance Solo in my Back Yard with Sand and Sun.
True; I don't 'need' Dopamine either but the More the Merrier when one Does it in Balance as all things in Life.

Some folks are just coming to these 'Intellectual Giants' as they Have become their Priests and
Pastors and these are the Weekly to Even Daily Sermons online for Free as they may if they
Care to Contribute to the Coffers of the Pod Cast Baskets as Folks Like Jordan
Smash the 'other' side Pejoratively so in Political Slang Like 'those' Leftists, those
Lefties and those 'Marxists' some more as of course while Jordan may not realize it
this gives him a little 'Lobster Boost' in his obvious deficit of 'Little Man' Disease of Low
in Serotonin whereas you won't see Sam Harris or someone Like Jonathan Haidt doing this as they
Obviously are Confident Men in their own skin who are not so Pre-Disposed to the Lack of Serotonin
Inherent in Many Mental Associated Disorders in both Mind and Body Way. People with these issues of the
Need for a Tribal Boost Naturally Gravitate toward Jordan as that is an Inherent Part of what is Empty in his Human
Nature that he really doesn't try to avoid in the the Fact that he's had this Lifelong Problem as Probably an Outcast when
Young, who still Hasn't truly Looked within; spent enough time alone to get his self all filled up as one Force of Human
Nature Balance. It's Obvious Sam Harris and Jonathan Haidt have their 'Stuff' Together as they don't get nearly as
Bent out of Shape with the Frustrations and Aggressions that naturally come when a Person Feels Empty inside
as that applies to Neuro-Chemicals and Neuro-Hormones that come through Nature and the Nurture now of
Environment too; it's easy to see from Non-Verbal Language for those who pick up less and more of Human
Nature and Nurture too. It's True too, the Autism Extending Phenotype is Strong for most all of these Dudes
as of course they are Systemizing Scientists too; with the Rubin Dude not so much; or the Rogan
Dude too, as More Intellectual Light Weights obvious to see too although they are a little more
Loose about Life as Any Comedian Naturally Comes to be for the Sake of their Neuro-Chemistry too.

True, both Harris and Peterson could use as little more Comedy too but that's not so much Part of 'Left
Brain Thinking' at least per Wet Wit Verses Dry Wit now; hehe. Smiles, in other words most People in the
Real Bell Curve World are living as the Gold Fish that the Environment of Quick Link Shares with Warnings
of TL; you won't Ever Read 'this' for 'we' understand the Average Attention Span of Humans now for the
Deeper Stuff of Life past a McDonald's Hamburger and Fries to go aLong with that in Less than 30
Seconds now of a Mind and Body without tHe Ability to eat more than that at one sitting now.

You See my Friend; I've never Had a Problem understanding anyone on this Internet Site
as there are many Variations of Human Communication Here in Terms off Both Science and
Art that Amuse me, Entertain Me; and even Stimulate my Mind to Greater Depths but I always
Learn More as i ain't scared of anyone's Freedom of Expression now. But on the other hand, if I hadn't
Developed the Real Life Ability to Master my own Emotions in Regulation and Senses in Integration, I
Might do a Butt Hurt Dance Empty Inside when the Nagging Threat of Empty Within comes to visit again.
But it won't for I have so many ways to stay Filled up inside; I'm Like a Speeding Bullet that way in Slow
Motion Per 'Matrix' Movie Metaphor too; hehe. The Best News of all Probably is if a former Gold Fish Attention
Span Dude Like me can do it; other Canaries in the 'Coal Mind' likely can and will too as use it or lose it applies
to everything in Life; Whether or not 'they' Become A Dance Legend in Red States of Public Dance Gulf to Coast
Probably Depends on if they Develop any 'Real Human Ball's; Female and or Male as that comes to be too. It's
Worth Noting for the Incel Variety of Dude too that the Size of a Wallet is down on the Lowest List of what Women
Love most for Fearless is above the 60th Percentile way of Turning Women on and Big Fat Wallets are at about the
Bottom in the Single Digits too. In other, Words too, if Trump went the option I took at his age 'then' His Bus Experience
of Life in Locker Room Talk would be much Different as He Wouldn't have to approach Women at all as they Would
Naturally Gravitate to him like Planets Revolving around a Fearless Sun hehe; and that's easy for me to Prove
with over 2000 photos too in much more than empty Locker Talks On Buses with even smaller men than him.

In other Words; the 'Real Incels', who are spending all their spare time watching these Extended Play Podcasts
and or Video Games would as far as Human Nature and Statistics Go find a way to exude a Non-Verbal way
of Fearless every day now and the Women will be more like Honey Bees than 'Wasps' who sting now. And
no; Hell no; this doesn't even necessarily have any thing to do with 'Chad Looks' too as if one opens up
My Latest Blog Post, I was a Hell of a Lot Better Looking as a 'Chad' at 30 than I am now but the thing is, I was
Obviously in Non-Verbal Speak about as Uncomfortable in my own skin as any male goes and comes now.
I was a Wall Flower in the Bar Dance Halls then no matter how Good Looking I was then as I didn't literally
understand how to even move in a Stance of Fearless until a Few Months in the late 80's Long enough
to Attract the Wife I still have the only Few Months I was truly confident through My late 20's Back then.

I'm not afraid of any opinion, now; and True in terms of Both Dance and Song I Win for this for Fearless
Confidence in Love is at the Core of what Humanity still is at the best of what we can and will be now.
The Evidence Proves it all across my Life Span now and the Science of it is also onboard now. And yes
after I got Married, I got the metaphor of 'fat and lazy' as I thought the Only Real Goal in Life was a Woman
to Love you now. Entropy Started to Set in, when I finally figured out so much Later at 53 that the Secret to
all Real Success is to never leave a Boot Camp of Mind and Body Balance from first to last Blink of Life now;
even if one never went in the First Place as we do have the potential for a Relative Free Will to Co-Create our
Boot-Camps that Successfully Work for us across the Lifespan now; takes effort Real Blood, Sweat and Tears
but the Results in Real Life Evidence Prove the Reward is not only intrinsic but outside of Inside too, now.

I see very Little Physical and or Emotional Intelligences Given in any of these Podcasts Formats of Hours Long
Except for words like Meditation and Martial Arts and Rough and Tumble Play. It's easy enough to tell for the
ones who've found something that works for they aren't obviously always in Lobster and or Tribal Mode of
filling up an empty space inside. Real James Bond's Don't go in to Attack Mode unless there is something
worthy to defend like their Flesh and Blood Life for it is only a waste of Human Energy that Proves nothing
more than who is truly weak or strong inside; For it's also True, Neuro-Chemicals and Neuro-Hormones do
not lie or the Behaviors Generated from the Essence of a Lack of all these Sparks of Life Free now. 'Those'
who Master 'them' in Mind and Body Balance win the Turtle Races over the Nervous Rabbits still, in my life too.

But Still, now, I listen for I learn something and Have Plenty of Multi-Tasking Hours to do it; the thing is I Learn
as Much about Human Nature from a Conspiracy YouTube Site as I do for all these Folks with all these Fancy
Credentials too for the 'Crazy' ones will dip into places these folks will never go for they just don't have the time
or focus or Interest too. It's nice not to have to Worry about Money or the Politics of Human Soul when you come
Loaded with
so much
more
than
'Guns and Bullets' and 'Dollar Bills' now
Without 'Real Guns' and 'Bullets' per actual do
of Fearless Love Money; Anyway, thanks for sharing, it was interesting and
Those Interviews with Sam Harris and Peterson are the best yet, i've seen.
Sam Harris has really Got most of his Stuff together but he still lacks the
Emotional/Physical Intelligences to understand that Organized Religion is never going
away for People Go to Hold Hands in what all Social Animals do as a Team Together no matter
what 'it' is; dark or light or so-called Religion and or Politics' that binds and bonds them together in
Symbolic And in Edifice ways of Temples they want to last forever in Symbols They Feel as Holy and Sacred
Full of Meaning and Purpose just to feel the Oxytocin of the Flesh and Blood Touch now as Science shows
Avatar
Life
will never
come close to
Replacing the Human
Flesh and Blood Hug now;
not even in Nasal Sprays of
Oxytocin for Love is Colored More than the Reductionist Parts of Flesh and Blood.
Love is Colored by the Biggest Sexual and Love Organs of all the Entire Mind and Body in Synergy as Force of Love.
When I Hear Sam and Peterson talk about this, I will see they've joined 'The Party'; yes, 'they' Do have That Potential, too..:)


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05 Sep 2018, 11:20 am

so.. while I haven't had the time/interest to get into what the Weistein's have to say, I am familiar with Jonathan Haidt.
I like showing his TED talk on the moral roots of liberals and conservatives to my students, followed by a rather weird japanese animated short based on a rather weird Kafka short story (A country doctor, by Koji Yamamura). The student's reactions to this short film are very mixed, some love it and some are very alienated by it, basically illustrating what Haidt is talking about.

I think I'm more interested in the extremes because ... I feel like I don't need the moderate arguments, as I'm thinking moderate thoughts already. I live in one of those moderate European mixed economies and it appears quite obvious that this is a more viable solution than the north-american dog-eat-dog version of capitalism. However, due to international pressures, the social structures here are eroding, and have become less self-evident.
As this way of going about things is in question, there is some need to define things... as in: how much of each ingredient is actually needed for the mix to work. ... and that, of course, turns into a religious discussion, rather than a more sober "let's find out"-approach.

I'm interested in the more extreme ideas because they are other to mine, and I'm trying to get familiar with what I perceive as yet to come here in Europe, with increasing polarization. I think the US is a but ahead, but not far.

Also: reading Marx, and reading on Marx, convinced me that what I see as a major problem of the current capitalist system - ecology- can't be adressed properly, and marxist worker-owned cooperatives won't automatically fix this.
let alone that worker-owned cooperatives come with a boatload of problems that stay unadressed.
so I'm not a marxist. But I don't want to dismiss his writings either, because I think there is a wealth of good ideas about how to think about certain issues, though these ideas may not be without fault or fully apllicable to the world 150 years later.


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05 Sep 2018, 1:35 pm

I think the main point I was getting at though - a lot of the thought structures you're suggesting might be way off in mystic land at least on a secular level find agreement with Bret and Eric as well as Jonathan to an extent.

Someone else I started a thread about recently ('Seven Types of Atheism') who also has very interesting views on the cognitive structure of western society and the blind spots and false certainties we tend to have is John Gray.

They're all sharp and thorough thinkers and, among them, Jordan doesn't look nearly as strange or radical compared to people looking at him as if he were a one-man edifice with no known sensible thinkers half way or 2/3 of the way out to where he is.


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05 Sep 2018, 2:03 pm

These two are particularly good with respect to Bret's ideas:



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"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privelege of owning yourself" - Rudyard Kipling