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sly279
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18 Mar 2018, 2:36 pm

There are those who want to destroy every last thing to do with nazis and Germany from 1918-1946. I don’t think so. I think hitlers car should be preserved, as should the camps, the parade area, I wish the bunker hadn’t been destroyed. Objects give people emotional connections to history far more then pages in a book do.
People who’ve seen hitlers car say they can feel the evil. Good, remember it and don’t let it happen again. Isn’t that the same reason eupeoans tske field trips to the camps to give kids an emotional connection to history. Seems to me it works far better then reading it in a book for few days a week in school does. If you see artifacts from them and feel the pain and emotions your far more likely to remember it.

I’d like to eventually get a coin, piece of history to never forget. Never repeat.
I’d like to visit the camps, parade grounds, hitlers car. We shouldn’t be like Isis destroying history we don’t like. Romans mass killed people do, so did the Huns, we don’t erase them. If we erase history then it’s destined to be repeated.



kraftiekortie
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18 Mar 2018, 3:41 pm

I don’t believe in erasing history. No.

But I do believe in respecting the rights of people not to hear about Hitler’s car.

And people should KNOW that the atrocities the Nazis perpertrated far outweigh the “good” They supposedly did.

We don’t want to provide ANY credibility to the Nazi regime.



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18 Mar 2018, 3:50 pm

I don’t believe there is any defense for genocide, anywhere, no matter WHO perpetuated it. There should be no erasure of history.



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18 Mar 2018, 3:52 pm

Yep. People should be exposed to the evils of the Nazis—but they should be exposed to them carefully.



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18 Mar 2018, 4:03 pm

i'm conflicted between whether confederate hero statues should be clapped away in a museum for backwardness, or just allowed to be exposed to the harsh elements of nature and birds crapping all over them. :scratch:



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18 Mar 2018, 4:27 pm

sly279 wrote:
If we erase history then it’s destined to be repeated.

I agree!

Now, at the risk of going-down the Confederate rabbit hole..... I think it is stupid to remove the flags, statues, and so-forth. If you want a "black people's statue"----right now, Baltimore is erecting (or, HAS erected) a statue to Harriet Tubman, in one of the places that used to have a Confederate staute----that's fine, put 'em right up there with ol' Lee (or whichever Confederate), that'll make 'im roll-over in his grave (LOL); but, don't take things, AWAY (add-TO - that way, IMO, nobody feels snubbed)! !





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18 Mar 2018, 4:38 pm

mankind has proven repeatedly that he ignores history, by and large. so it matters more for the historians than it does for everyman. besides, if history is written mainly by the victors, how is it not [in henry ford's words] "bunk"?



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18 Mar 2018, 5:29 pm

No. People need to know that evil people do good things sometimes so they don't automatically get fooled by the good thing. We are at a point where a person can do no wrong or no right. This mentality is f*****g us up royally.

An example of erasing history was when Trump said that America has done bad things it was seen at the time and is still brought up as an absolutely horrific outrageous thing to say. It is an obvious truth. To a whole bunch of people for saying what I just said I will be judged as insufficiently woke and thus an evil Trump enabler.


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sly279
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18 Mar 2018, 7:43 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don’t believe in erasing history. No.

But I do believe in respecting the rights of people not to hear about Hitler’s car.

And people should KNOW that the atrocities the Nazis perpertrated far outweigh the “good” They supposedly did.

We don’t want to provide ANY credibility to the Nazi regime.

People want his car destroyed, they want anything to do with nazis destroyed and erases and forgotten.

I’ve meet younger people and kids who don’t know who hitler is or what he did or anything about ww2.



sly279
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18 Mar 2018, 7:47 pm

auntblabby wrote:
mankind has proven repeatedly that he ignores history, by and large. so it matters more for the historians than it does for everyman. besides, if history is written mainly by the victors, how is it not [in henry ford's words] "bunk"?

Thst may been true in the past but ww1 and on it isn’t, films exist,Pictures exist. Nazis documented everything so history didn’t need to be written by the victor. Today everyone has a camera and films events. There’s no digging up stuff and bent like I think this is what happen, there’s here’s this film thst shows how it happen.



sly279
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18 Mar 2018, 7:49 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
No. People need to know that evil people do good things sometimes so they don't automatically get fooled by the good thing. We are at a point where a person can do no wrong or no right. This mentality is f*****g us up royally.

An example of erasing history was when Trump said that America has done bad things it was seen at the time and is still brought up as an absolutely horrific outrageous thing to say. It is an obvious truth. To a whole bunch of people for saying what I just said I will be judged as insufficiently woke and thus an evil Trump enabler.


United States did horrible things that the younger generation doesn’t know about. They don’t know about the trail of tears. If it didn’t happen in their life time it didn’t happen.



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18 Mar 2018, 7:50 pm

Gordon White brought this up on his Thanksgiving special:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolperstein

Apparently Germany is keeping the buildings and fields where the nazis had their rallies untouched, but they're letting nature retake them which may very well have the desired effect.

I don't know if we can do this or not with the confederate memorials, while I think most northerners might nearly unanimously consider confederacy evil it's still an aspect of identity in the south and we'd probably need a more clever way to a similar conclusion - a conclusion of 'we fought a war, people died in the process, regardless of who won we still love you as a part of the populace and we're healing as a nation' and delivering that conclusion without condescension or smarminess.


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18 Mar 2018, 7:52 pm

Read a magazine article by an author outraged about how "Nazi death camps in Europe are all deteriorating!". For a nanosecond I thought that he sounded crazy. Why do the death camps need to be pristine? I wondered. But then it immediately struck that YES, its vital to protect the sites were the Holocaust happened because we already have Holocaust deniers now. Just think how ez it would be for future generations to get away with holocaust denial claims if there were no longer concrete (literally concrete) evidence of the holocaust around to point to and look at. So Auschwitz and Buchenwald do need to be preserved.

However confederate statues in Baltimore? Not the same thing at all.

Confederate statues in Baltimore are the opposite of real artifacts that point to real history. They were never anything but bogus puffery to begin with.

They honor men as "heroes" who were traitors to the nation. And who commited treason for the sole purpose of preserving slavery. The statues in question were all built long after the civil war in the 20th century. And...why does Baltimore even HAVE Confederate statues anyway? Yes...Maryland was a slave state, but it stayed in the Union and never even joined the Confederacy. Five thousand Marylanders died fighting for the south, but 20thousand died fighting for the North. So why does a non confederate state have confederate statues in the first place? The existence of the statues is BS wrapped in more BS.

The presence of the statues is erasure of history. Their proposed absence would restore truth. Not take away truth.

Statues of Lee in Virginia, or in any other of the actual Confederate states - that's a little more real. Not gonna take on the issue of Confederate statues in actual confederate states. But in Maryland its a no brainer. Take em down. And melt em down. Don't even put them in a museum. Monuments to both sides alongside each other on battlefields in both regions are fine.



sly279
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18 Mar 2018, 7:55 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
sly279 wrote:
If we erase history then it’s destined to be repeated.

I agree!

Now, at the risk of going-down the Confederate rabbit hole..... I think it is stupid to remove the flags, statues, and so-forth. If you want a "black people's statue"----right now, Baltimore is erecting (or, HAS erected) a statue to Harriet Tubman, in one of the places that used to have a Confederate staute----that's fine, put 'em right up there with ol' Lee (or whichever Confederate), that'll make 'im roll-over in his grave (LOL); but, don't take things, AWAY (add-TO - that way, IMO, nobody feels snubbed)! !

I think the should stay. I don’t think I’d support putting new confederate statues up.
To me tearing down confederate statues is no different then Isis destroying non Muslim Satues and sites.
Of Isis had gotten into Egypt and do’s trued the great pyramid people would freaked. Just as peoplemget upset at what they and taliban desotryed but they just doing the same thing and destroying history they see as evil.
History has always looked back at nations who destroy history as wrong. Romans, Huns, Chinese, nazis, soviets, etc that’s the company one keeps when destroying history they don’t like.



sly279
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18 Mar 2018, 7:57 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Gordon White brought this up on his Thanksgiving special:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolperstein

Apparently Germany is keeping the buildings and fields where the nazis had their rallies untouched, but they're letting nature retake them which may very well have the desired effect.

I don't know if we can do this or not with the confederate memorials, while I think most northerners might nearly unanimously consider confederacy evil it's still an aspect of identity in the south and we'd probably need a more clever way to a similar conclusion - a conclusion of 'we fought a war, people died in the process, regardless of who won we still love you as a part of the populace and we're healing as a nation' and delivering that conclusion without condescension or smarminess.


There’s an effort to preserve the rally site and turn it into a museum. I hope it succeeds.
I’d like to visit it, to stand where evil rose and fell. To get an connection beyond books and tv.



sly279
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18 Mar 2018, 8:02 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Read a magazine article by an author outraged about how "Nazi death camps in Europe are all deteriorating!". For a nanosecond I thought that he sounded crazy. Why do the death camps need to be pristine? I wondered. But then it immediately struck that YES, its vital to protect the sites were the Holocaust happened because we already have Holocaust deniers now. Just think how ez it would be for future generations to get away with holocaust denial claims if there were no longer concrete (literally concrete) evidence of the holocaust around to point to and look at. So Auschwitz and Buchenwald do need to be preserved.

However confederate statues in Baltimore? Not the same thing at all.

Confederate statues in Baltimore are the opposite of real artifacts that point to real history. They were never anything but bogus puffery to begin with.

They honor men as "heroes" who were traitors to the nation. And who commited treason for the sole purpose of preserving slavery. The statues in question were all built long after the civil war in the 20th century. And...why does Baltimore even HAVE Confederate statues anyway? Yes...Maryland was a slave state, but it stayed in the Union and never even joined the Confederacy. Five thousand Marylanders died fighting for the south, but 20thousand died fighting for the North. So why does a non confederate state have confederate statues in the first place? The existence of the statues is BS wrapped in more BS.

The presence of the statues is erasure of history. Their proposed absence would restore truth. Not take away truth.

Statues of Lee in Virginia, or in any other of the actual Confederate states - that's a little more real. Not gonna take on the issue of Confederate statues in actual confederate states. But in Maryland its a no brainer. Take em down. And melt em down. Don't even put them in a museum. Monuments to both sides alongside each other on battlefields in both regions are fine.


Washington was a traitor to his nation of england.
So we’re all the founding fathers.

Not all statues are of generals. Some were just confederate soldiers to be a memorial to Americans yes they were Americans who died in the war in the south’s side. I’ll defend those satues. Leave memorials alone.
The people who want them down want the Washington monument down too.