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pluto
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25 Feb 2018, 7:07 am

Although Britain doesn't have so many direct legacies from the Roman Empire,the indirect legacies and existence of Roman historical sites are significant,even in Scotland which was only temporarily part of the empire for a relatively short time.Scots law has a basis in Roman law and there are remains of bath houses etc in once-occupied areas (with modern streets having names such as Roman Road to acknowledge them) and marching camps over a hundred miles north of the empire's permanent border at Hadrian's Wall.When the legions were called to defend mainland Europe,
the border was in danger from the native Picts,the Scots who were originally from Ireland and the Germanic Anglo Saxons.
I've always been intrigued how the Romans managed to run such a vast empire without the use of computers,phones etc.The idea of trying to do that nowadays seems impossible.


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naturalplastic
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25 Feb 2018, 8:19 am

pluto wrote:
I've always been intrigued how the Romans managed to run such a vast empire without the use of computers,phones etc.The idea of trying to do that nowadays seems impossible.


Yes.

Folks (someone even asked about it above in this thread) obsess about "why Rome fell?". But its amazing that it lasted as long as it did. The Roman empire was vaster than the Persian Empire (the largest in the middle east prior to Rome). Conquered huge areas that were never part of the civilized world before. Western Europe was like darkest Africa was in Victorian times. The Romans ruled Gaul (now France) the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal) and even Britain longer than the colonial powers of modern Europe ruled the interior of Africa (and they had railroads, guns, and telegraph lines that the Romans didn't have).

China was unified at about the same time as the rise of the Roman Empire. It was a comparable achievement . Had at least as large a population as the Roman Empire. But China then didn't have the physical size of the Roman empire.



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25 Feb 2018, 9:38 am

Old English (the language of the Anglo-Saxons) resembles German much more than it resembles Modern English. Even Chaucer’s English (Middle English), while considerably closer to Modern English, still sounds quite “German” when it was spoken. The Modern English pronunciation of things came about because of the Great Vowel Shift of the 1400’s.



naturalplastic
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25 Feb 2018, 11:05 am

Britain does have legacies of the Roman occupation. One of them is a little town called that you mighta heard of called "London". :lol:

"Londonium" , and all of the English cities that have names that end in "Chester" (Colchester, Winchester, Chichester), and a city that was a mecca for locals who had adopted the Roman custom taking in public baths that is still called (oddly enough) "Bath", were all founded by the Romans.



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25 Feb 2018, 11:10 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Britain does have legacies of the Roman occupation. One of them is a little town called that you mighta heard of called "London". :lol:

"Londonium" , and all of the English cities that have names that end in "Chester" (Colchester, Winchester, Chichester), and a city that was a mecca for locals who had adopted the Roman custom taking in public baths that is still called (oddly enough) "Bath", were all founded by the Romans.


Only uncultured Barbarians bathed at home with soap!


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kraftiekortie
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25 Feb 2018, 11:49 am

I never said there wasn’t a Roman legacy in Britain. I just stated it didn’t really trickle down much to the “common folk.”

Roman ways were embraced by some of the “elite.” But not after they left, for the most part. The clergy embraced Christian learning, which both Roman and not Roman.

The Celtic peoples resented Rome more than they were influenced by them.



cyberdad
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25 Feb 2018, 3:24 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
by the Norman French and the official language of England became French (though only the Aristocray spoke French most of the time).

HERE is when the Latin influence came into English. Indirectly by way of French (though monastaries had kept Latin going as in all of Christian Europe, but that Latin was for the learned, not for the common man).


Thanks for your post, yes I agree the timeline makes sense but I was alluding to latin permeating Old English well before 1066...Christian priests were well ensconced with Romanised locals before the arrival of the Saxons, it also only took the Saxons around hundred years to be converted to christianity (around 600AD) Rather than the Norman elite the priests were introducing Latin words through the bible and latin catholic mass. My understanding is the French speaking Normans hardly interacted with the local peasantry so it had to be the christian priests sent from Rome...Even Alfred the great spoke Latin and spent part of his childhood in Rome...



cyberdad
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25 Feb 2018, 3:28 pm

pluto wrote:
I've always been intrigued how the Romans managed to run such a vast empire without the use of computers,phones etc.The idea of trying to do that nowadays seems impossible.

I think they used their roads as an ancient "super highway" to transport goods/services. It was also a messaging service whereby a fast chariot could send messages from Londinium to Rome within a matter of weeks or even faster using signal lamps along their roads....



kraftiekortie
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25 Feb 2018, 5:21 pm

Yes, the elites, scholars, and clergy had the Roman terms, and some of them are in use today. But the common people didn’t use them.

The French borrowings, from 1066 on, and especially from around Chaucer’s time, were much more numerous....and the common people adopted them. They are so much a part of our language that many of them are recognized as “pure English” today.



cyberdad
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26 Feb 2018, 12:51 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Yes, the elites, scholars, and clergy had the Roman terms, and some of them are in use today. But the common people didn’t use them.

The French borrowings, from 1066 on, and especially from around Chaucer’s time, were much more numerous....and the common people adopted them. They are so much a part of our language that many of them are recognized as “pure English” today.


Touch'e Kraftie! and Bon Voyage!



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26 Feb 2018, 2:27 am

naturalplastic wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Something that you should "ponder": laying off huffing propane before you post online next time.

Our 20th Century parents and grandparents got their notions that the Germans were "dangerously warlike" not from something Caesar said 2000 years earlier, but from their own first hand experiences: like fighting in one or the other of the two global wars Germany started, or being bombed in the blitz, or living under Nazi occupation, or surviving a concentration camp with your serial number still branded on your skin, or like that. :lol:


World War One was started by Gavrilo Princip. He was a Bosnian.


A Bosnian terrorist lit the powder keg of Europe, but once it exploded, Germany, and its ally Austria, were the, for the most part, the territorial aggressor side. So in general sense their side started the war.


Austria Hungary was attacked first. Germany only came in after Russia and France declared on Austria. So how exactly did Germany throw the first punch? Reality is the central powers were the good guys in ww1, and if as the USA suggested the allies hadn’t punished Germany so harshly for defending their ally against Russia and France, we’d probably never gotten hitler or the Nazis and neber had a ww2.



The_Face_of_Boo
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26 Feb 2018, 2:58 am

sly279 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Something that you should "ponder": laying off huffing propane before you post online next time.

Our 20th Century parents and grandparents got their notions that the Germans were "dangerously warlike" not from something Caesar said 2000 years earlier, but from their own first hand experiences: like fighting in one or the other of the two global wars Germany started, or being bombed in the blitz, or living under Nazi occupation, or surviving a concentration camp with your serial number still branded on your skin, or like that. :lol:


World War One was started by Gavrilo Princip. He was a Bosnian.


A Bosnian terrorist lit the powder keg of Europe, but once it exploded, Germany, and its ally Austria, were the, for the most part, the territorial aggressor side. So in general sense their side started the war.


Austria Hungary was attacked first. Germany only came in after Russia and France declared on Austria. So how exactly did Germany throw the first punch? Reality is the central powers were the good guys in ww1, and if as the USA suggested the allies hadn’t punished Germany so harshly for defending their ally against Russia and France, we’d probably never gotten hitler or the Nazis and neber had a ww2.


It is also may be surprising for some to learn that Japan was actually with the allies and attacked German colonies in WWI.



kraftiekortie
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26 Feb 2018, 3:07 am

Of course, French came from Latin, so that could mean an indirect Roman influence

How am I wrong to infer that French borrowings were more influential than Latin borrowings when it came to the formation of Modern English?

Saying “Bon Voyage” implies you think my notions are sort of like an absurd “trip,” and that you don’t feel my notions have much merit....and that my mind is not open to other possible explanations. I am going on a cruise in April.

Of course, Rome left its mark on the British Isles....but the common people didn’t embrace Roman ways. They were stubborn in maintaining their own culture.



cyberdad
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26 Feb 2018, 5:31 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Saying “Bon Voyage” implies you think my notions are sort of like an absurd “trip,” and that you don’t feel my notions have much merit....

No I don't think they are absurd. I was enjoying dabbling in some Je peux parler français.

kraftiekortie wrote:
Of course, Rome left its mark on the British Isles....but the common people didn’t embrace Roman ways. They were stubborn in maintaining their own culture.

The problem is people of British ancestry have virtually zero knowledge of their pre-Roman culture, everything is largely conjecture



kraftiekortie
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26 Feb 2018, 6:54 am

Have you ever been to the Azores, Cyberdad?

In some discussions, saying “Bon Voyage” is akin to saying “I give up” lol

One fascinating world entity: the Wallace Line.