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The_Face_of_Boo
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26 Feb 2018, 7:29 am

One characteristic (a very successful one) in Roman empire/republic - that they were "culture-assimilating conquerors" , in other term, they didn't really destroy the local cultures/religions of the culture they conquered (like Egypt, Greece and Canaan) but instead they 'romanized' them while even adopting things from these cultures - hence increasing their citizenship body and hence their military manpower. This lessened rebellions and increased loyalty to the empire.

Their main rival, Carthage, had a different way of expansion, which was basically expansion through trading treaties with local tribes, founding phoenician settlements here and there, and hiring more mercenaries for wars. It was also a successful expansion way, but it was way more costly than the Roman one to maintain it.

While Romans weren't really nice guys (they enslaved people and threw slaves to lions for fun...etc )but their conquest ways was pretty opposite to Fascism, Islamic, and Mongol which are basically 'Destroy everything and rebuild'.
In the fictive Dune universe, Romans are Atreides, Carthaginians are Ordos, and Huns are the Harkonnens.



cyberdad
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26 Feb 2018, 2:59 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
While Romans weren't really nice guys (they enslaved people and threw slaves to lions for fun...etc )but their conquest ways was pretty opposite to Fascism, Islamic, and Mongol which are basically 'Destroy everything and rebuild'.


I think it's irrelevant to compare modern fascism (which is an ideological political movement) with Rome which was an empire built on economic and military expansion

The Romans were an elitist warrior society that gave special privileges to it's citizens and treated slaves worse than animals. One rather disturbing thing was that a wealthy Roman senator wrote was after watching a magic trick where a magician took his slave and cut his hand off, he uttered some magic words and the hand (apparently) walked back to it's owner then a sheet was thrown and miraculously the hand was re-attached.

The wealthy Roman wanted to learn the trick so took all his house slaves to the magician and asked him to do it again. Of course the magician couldn't replicate the trick and every slave painfully lost their hands. After putting his poor slaves through this torture the furious Roman had the magician executed.

I think it illustrates that even though Romans were taking the first infant steps of civilisation the aristocracy were psychopaths, a characteristic probably nurtured over thousand years of warrior tribalism



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26 Feb 2018, 3:11 pm

cyberdad wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
While Romans weren't really nice guys (they enslaved people and threw slaves to lions for fun...etc )but their conquest ways was pretty opposite to Fascism, Islamic, and Mongol which are basically 'Destroy everything and rebuild'.


I think it's irrelevant to compare modern fascism (which is an ideological political movement) with Rome which was an empire built on economic and military expansion

The Romans were an elitist warrior society that gave special privileges to it's citizens and treated slaves worse than animals. One rather disturbing thing was that a wealthy Roman senator wrote was after watching a magic trick where a magician took his slave and cut his hand off, he uttered some magic words and the hand (apparently) walked back to it's owner then a sheet was thrown and miraculously the hand was re-attached.

The wealthy Roman wanted to learn the trick so took all his house slaves to the magician and asked him to do it again. Of course the magician couldn't replicate the trick and every slave painfully lost their hands. After putting his poor slaves through this torture the furious Roman had the magician executed.

I think it illustrates that even though Romans were taking the first infant steps of civilisation the aristocracy were psychopaths, a characteristic probably nurtured over thousand years of warrior tribalism


That's something I've noticed all throughout history, and in even parts of the modern world. People behaving in ways that we would attribute to violent psychopaths, or severely mentally ill individuals. I have to wonder if the development of a conscience is in large part a product of the modern world.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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26 Feb 2018, 5:33 pm

Are the modern elite aristocrats less psychopaths though? look at Bachar el Assad and Kim jong example.



Kraichgauer
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26 Feb 2018, 5:47 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Are the modern elite aristocrats less psychopaths though? look at Bachar el Assad and Kim jong example.


Let's say that common, everyday people behave better for the most part.


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sly279
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26 Feb 2018, 6:01 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Are the modern elite aristocrats less psychopaths though? look at Bachar el Assad and Kim jong example.


Let's say that common, everyday people behave better for the most part.

That’s probably more cause they can’t afford to get away with it rather then moral. If society collapsed tomorrow and there were no police most people will loot, rob, and kill others to get whatever they want, it’s only police that keep most everyday people behaving.



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26 Feb 2018, 6:18 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

That's something I've noticed all throughout history, and in even parts of the modern world. People behaving in ways that we would attribute to violent psychopaths, or severely mentally ill individuals. I have to wonder if the development of a conscience is in large part a product of the modern world.


Isn't it more a matter of the inherent human psychological element:
"Power corrupts...
Absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely..."
Even Frodo, in the Lord of the Rings, ultimately couldn't let go of the ring of power... :P

There are more checks and balances these days creating a moderating effect combating one's inherent lust/will to power...

If there were no consequences for one's actions, I dare say most would degenerate into hyper egocentricity...
Humanity, as a species, is a very unpleasant evolutionary creation...


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26 Feb 2018, 6:27 pm

sly279 wrote:
That’s probably more cause they can’t afford to get away with it rather then moral.


... and yet the people of the Amazon Rainforest manage to survive peacefully without any earthly leader or supreme being.

Quote:
If society collapsed tomorrow and there were no police most people will loot, rob, and kill others to get whatever they want, it’s only police that keep most everyday people behaving.


What do you mean by "society collapsed"?

Society can never fully collapse because society is a product of human instinct. People always create cooperative communities.

Human history shows us that humanity is almost never chaotic. Most human behavior that appears chaotic just has a different type of order that you do not recognize. When one form of society dies, another one replaces it. All human beings want to live in a world where some things are a surprise, but most things are predictable.


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kraftiekortie
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26 Feb 2018, 7:37 pm

The Yanomami (Amazon people) might not have A Supreme Being---but they have MANY Supreme Beings.



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26 Feb 2018, 8:30 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
sly279 wrote:
If society collapsed tomorrow and there were no police most people will loot, rob, and kill others to get whatever they want, it’s only police that keep most everyday people behaving.


What do you mean by "society collapsed"?

Society can never fully collapse because society is a product of human instinct. People always create cooperative communities.


Ok, replace "If society collapsed" with "If some random person found the ring of Gyges". If that ring made him not only invisible but undetectable by any means, would he commit crimes? Would he become rich from stealing? Would he surreptitiously murder his enemies?

If yes then people behave morally only because they want to avoid punishment. If no then people behave morally for some other reason.

Anyway, aside from their power and wealth, are aristocrats really so different from ordinary people?


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26 Feb 2018, 8:51 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Ok, replace "If society collapsed" with "If some random person found the ring of Gyges". If that ring made him not only invisible but undetectable by any means, would he commit crimes? Would he become rich from stealing? Would he surreptitiously murder his enemies?


Probably not.

Most people don't have "natural bloodlust" ... at least not for human blood. When ordinary civilians commit mass murder, it is usually a product of mental illness or political propaganda.

Wanton murder isn't addictive, but political power is. That's the real challenge that we humans must overcome.

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If yes then people behave morally only because they want to avoid punishment. If no then people behave morally for some other reason.

Anyway, aside from their power and wealth, are aristocrats really so different from ordinary people?


Power often leads to power addiction. That's what makes them different from us.


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26 Feb 2018, 11:59 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Ok, replace "If society collapsed" with "If some random person found the ring of Gyges". If that ring made him not only invisible but undetectable by any means, would he commit crimes? Would he become rich from stealing? Would he surreptitiously murder his enemies?


Would he peek in locker rooms?... :mrgreen:

Some people are born with an inherent moral compass...
But power changes people usually to their advantage and at the cost of others...
Axiomatic...


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


sly279
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27 Feb 2018, 2:13 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
sly279 wrote:
That’s probably more cause they can’t afford to get away with it rather then moral.


... and yet the people of the Amazon Rainforest manage to survive peacefully without any earthly leader or supreme being.

Quote:
If society collapsed tomorrow and there were no police most people will loot, rob, and kill others to get whatever they want, it’s only police that keep most everyday people behaving.


What do you mean by "society collapsed"?

Society can never fully collapse because society is a product of human instinct. People always create cooperative communities.

Human history shows us that humanity is almost never chaotic. Most human behavior that appears chaotic just has a different type of order that you do not recognize. When one form of society dies, another one replaces it. All human beings want to live in a world where some things are a surprise, but most things are predictable.


You telling me they don’t have any kind of organization system that punishes crime or bad actions? Doubt it.

You wake up tomorrow, the us government is gone, the military is gone, the police are gone any form of government and it’s services are gone. People are free to do whatever they want without any punishment. There’s lots of people waiting for this. One group train and plan to raid their neighbors for supplies and rape the women for fun. Think old west towns that were far from government but worse, even those towns had some form of law and order. There a lot of people who’d do bad stuff if they didn’t have any punishment to worry about, example every natural disaster while police are busy rescuing people thousands start looting and this is just region that’s effected. Imagine say if tomorrow we suffer solar flare that mocks out power in the us for two years. The government doesn’t have the forces to control 320 million starving people. Do your not think people will kill for food? Or to steal wealth. Sorry only thing holding us from turning into the purge is the police and criminal justice system, most people don’t want to go to prison, so they don’t do bad stuff, they do as much as they can get away with and some go to far and get caught, take away that system and there’s nothing holding them back anymore.

And while that one is collapsing and before th new one can form thousands or millions die in the chaos. Will the chaos last forever will the bad people prevail forever no. But that doesn’t change what I said thst people will do bad things if the punishment is gone. If we made murder legal tomorrow, murder rates would go up. I have no faith in humans to be good without law and order. I’ve meet and seen too many people who’d do whatever it takes to make sure them and their family do ok, if that means killing strangers they’ll do it. I can only pray I’m not alive when such an event happens. Imagine Katrina but all over the nation and there no government to come to th rescue. Eventually cities and communities will form and they fight other communities, some will conquer and form new nations, but there will be lots of death in the mean time.



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27 Feb 2018, 2:46 am

sly279 wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
sly279 wrote:
That’s probably more cause they can’t afford to get away with it rather then moral.


... and yet the people of the Amazon Rainforest manage to survive peacefully without any earthly leader or supreme being.

Quote:
If society collapsed tomorrow and there were no police most people will loot, rob, and kill others to get whatever they want, it’s only police that keep most everyday people behaving.


What do you mean by "society collapsed"?

Society can never fully collapse because society is a product of human instinct. People always create cooperative communities.

Human history shows us that humanity is almost never chaotic. Most human behavior that appears chaotic just has a different type of order that you do not recognize. When one form of society dies, another one replaces it. All human beings want to live in a world where some things are a surprise, but most things are predictable.


You telling me they don’t have any kind of organization system that punishes crime or bad actions? Doubt it.

You wake up tomorrow, the us government is gone, the military is gone, the police are gone any form of government and it’s services are gone. People are free to do whatever they want without any punishment. There’s lots of people waiting for this. One group train and plan to raid their neighbors for supplies and rape the women for fun. Think old west towns that were far from government but worse, even those towns had some form of law and order. There a lot of people who’d do bad stuff if they didn’t have any punishment to worry about, example every natural disaster while police are busy rescuing people thousands start looting and this is just region that’s effected. Imagine say if tomorrow we suffer solar flare that mocks out power in the us for two years. The government doesn’t have the forces to control 320 million starving people. Do your not think people will kill for food? Or to steal wealth. Sorry only thing holding us from turning into the purge is the police and criminal justice system, most people don’t want to go to prison, so they don’t do bad stuff, they do as much as they can get away with and some go to far and get caught, take away that system and there’s nothing holding them back anymore.

And while that one is collapsing and before th new one can form thousands or millions die in the chaos. Will the chaos last forever will the bad people prevail forever no. But that doesn’t change what I said thst people will do bad things if the punishment is gone. If we made murder legal tomorrow, murder rates would go up. I have no faith in humans to be good without law and order. I’ve meet and seen too many people who’d do whatever it takes to make sure them and their family do ok, if that means killing strangers they’ll do it. I can only pray I’m not alive when such an event happens. Imagine Katrina but all over the nation and there no government to come to th rescue. Eventually cities and communities will form and they fight other communities, some will conquer and form new nations, but there will be lots of death in the mean time.


While the collapse of society, and law enforcement with it, doubtlessly would bring out the worst in some people, I think it's also true that it would cause other citizens to step up and attempt to bring about order again.


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27 Feb 2018, 2:54 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
That's something I've noticed all throughout history, and in even parts of the modern world. People behaving in ways that we would attribute to violent psychopaths, or severely mentally ill individuals. I have to wonder if the development of a conscience is in large part a product of the modern world.


I think that should be obvious. The European colonial powers and Arab/Turkish empires expanded through military violence.