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sly279
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24 Feb 2018, 3:06 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Most people that want to ban guns (yes, a ban of any kind of gun is a prelude to banning ALL guns) want to do so because they think guns are icky. Really, that's what it usually comes down to.


First of all, do you have any proof that gun control would lead to the banning of all guns? You might as well say that banning the burning of the American Flag would lead to the banning of campfires.

Second, most gun control advocates have reasons that are more complex and nuanced. You aren't going to help your cause by ignoring the arguments that your opponents are making.

Almost all gun control advocates want to prevent gun-related murders. Have you ever seen anyone use the phrase "Guns are icky!" in a formal debate? I've never seen that.

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These people that want to simply remove the 2nd Amendment need to realize that there are 26 other amendments, some of which they feel are necessary, that could be removed as well...


False Equivalence

It's entirely possible that some constitutional amendments are better than others.



“If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, ‘Mr. and Mrs. America turn ‘em all in,’ I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren’t here.’” Democrat senator. And others have been secretly recordered saying their end goal is to ban all guns. Start with simi auto rifles then handguns and eventually all guns.



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24 Feb 2018, 3:21 pm

sly279 wrote:
“If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, ‘Mr. and Mrs. America turn ‘em all in,’ I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren’t here.’” Democrat senator. And others have been secretly recordered saying their end goal is to ban all guns. Start with simi auto rifles then handguns and eventually all guns.


This post is very suspicious given that you haven't named a single Democrat senator. What are their names?

That quote is also highly suspect, since the word "firearm" is not used in the quote. Show me the context.


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AspieUtah
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24 Feb 2018, 3:29 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
sly279 wrote:
“If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, ‘Mr. and Mrs. America turn ‘em all in,’ I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren’t here.’” Democrat senator. And others have been secretly recordered saying their end goal is to ban all guns. Start with simi auto rifles then handguns and eventually all guns.

This post is very suspicious given that you haven't named a single Democrat senator. What are their names?

That quote is also highly suspect, since the word "firearm" is not used in the quote. Show me the context.

The quoted "Democrat senator" refers to U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California. She had a concealed-firearm permit for years and possessed her pistol in her purse wherever she went including the floor of the U.S. Senate chambers.


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kraftiekortie
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24 Feb 2018, 4:52 pm

I don't believe many of these "Democratic senators" would "ban guns." Many Democrats hunt, too.



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24 Feb 2018, 5:56 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't believe many of these "Democratic senators" would "ban guns." Many Democrats hunt, too.

That is correct.

It is difficult to accurately describe the Second Amendment opinions of elected officials given that they change offices, lose elections and often shade statement they made years ago.

So, instead of listing elected officials, I will list notable Americans who support (or supported) the Second Amendment at one time or another. They include:

--Democrat and actor Chad Allen of California (b. 1974)
--Democrat and actor Leonardo DiCaprio of California (b. 1974)
--Democrat and film maker Benjamin "Ben" Affleck of California (b. 1972)
--Democrat and entertainer Marshall "Eminem" Mathers III of Michigan (b. 1972)
--Democrat and entertainer Shaquille "Shaq" O'Neal of New Jersey (b. 1972)
--Democrat and entertainer Harry Connick Jr. of New York (b. 1967)
--Democrat and actor Charles "Charlie" Sheen of New York (b. 1965)
--Democrat and film maker Emilio Estevez of New York (b. 1962)
--Democrat and writer Paul Begala of Texas (b. 1961)
--Democrat and film maker Sean Penn of California (b. 1960)
--Democrat and New York Times writer Nicholas D. Kristof of New York (b. 1959)
--Occasional Democrat and entertainer William "Bill" Maher Jr. of California (b. 1956)
--Democrat and entertainer Howard Stern of New York (b. 1954)
--Democrat and entertainer Cybill Shepherd of California (b. 1950)
--Democrat and screenwriter David Mamet of Illinois (b. 1947)
--Democrat and actor Joseph "Joe" Mantegna Jr. of California (b. 1947)
--Democrat and writer Camille Paglia of New York (b. 1947)
--Democrat and film maker Steven Spielberg KBE of California (b. 1946)
--Democratic contributor-fundraiser and film maker Sylvester "Sly" Stallone of California (b. 1946)
--Democrat and film maker Oliver Stone of California (b. 1946)
--Democrat and writer James "Ragin' Cajun" Carville of Louisiana (b. 1944)
--Democrat and U.S. Army Gen. Wesley Kanne "Wes" Clark of Arkansas (b. 1944)
--Democrat and journalist "Cokie" Boggs Roberts of Louisiana (b. 1943)
--Democrat and film maker Robert de Niro Jr. of New York (b. 1943)
--Democrat and Teamsters union General President James P. "Jim" Hoffa of Michigan (b. 1941)
--Democrat, professional football player and American Hunters and Shooters Association President Raymond Frederick "Ray" Schoenke Jr. of Maryland (b. 1941)
--Democrat and actor Alfredo "Al" Pacino of New York (b. 1940)
--Democrat and Professor Alan Dershowitz J.D. of New York (b. 1938)
--Democrat and entertainer William "Bill" Cosby Jr. Ed.D. of California (b. 1937)
--Democrat and journalist Nicholas "Nick" Clooney of Kentucky (b. 1934)
--Democrat and Congress of Racial Equality Chairman Roy Innis of New York (b. 1934)
--Democrat and actor James Earl Jones of Mississippi (b. 1931)
--Democrat and film maker Richard Donner of California (b. 1930)
--Democrat and writer Mike Royko of Illinois (d. 1997)
--Democrat and writer Edward Abbey of Pennsylvania (d. 1989)
--Democrat and writer Robert Heinlein of Missouri (d. 1988)
--Democrat and civil-rights leader Bayard Rustin of New York (d. 1987)
--Democrat and the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. Ph.D. of Atlanta (d. 1968)
--Democrat and suffragist Susan B. Anthony of New York (d. 1906)
--Democrat and writer Walter "Walt" Whitman Jr. of New York (d. 1892)

...and, my favorite:

--Democrat and U.S. First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt of New York (d. 1962)


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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24 Feb 2018, 6:03 pm

For one thing, back then, many of the people who have guns today wouldn't have been allowed to own one. The Bill of Rights was written for land owners.



kraftiekortie
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24 Feb 2018, 6:14 pm

One of the main problems in the incipient democracy in the US during the late 18th century----was the fact that most people couldn't actually VOTE.

More people gained the franchise as more people in the UK gained the franchise.



sly279
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24 Feb 2018, 6:59 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
sly279 wrote:
“If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, ‘Mr. and Mrs. America turn ‘em all in,’ I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren’t here.’” Democrat senator. And others have been secretly recordered saying their end goal is to ban all guns. Start with simi auto rifles then handguns and eventually all guns.


This post is very suspicious given that you haven't named a single Democrat senator. What are their names?

That quote is also highly suspect, since the word "firearm" is not used in the quote. Show me the context.


I didn’t cause while I can pronounce her name I can’t spell it and that makes me embarrassed . She’s the queen of gun control long lasting til she dies in congress session senator Diane frienstien from the great gun control empire that is California. She’s also heavily invested in gun manufacturers so she makes a profit from any gun buying panics. She also carried and probably still does carry as she’s a senator she’s important she needs protection unlike us lowly peasants.
Google it there’s tons of videos of her saying it she was doing a abc interview. She’s the author of every assault weapons ban and the original 1994 ban she’s also the women who told senator cruz to shut up until he’d been a senator for 40-80 year so she clearly is a elitist classsist as well. She shouldn’t be a senator we shouldn’t have lifers in the senate.



sly279
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24 Feb 2018, 7:02 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
For one thing, back then, many of the people who have guns today wouldn't have been allowed to own one. The Bill of Rights was written for land owners.

That’s not true. As the army back then was made up of volunteers who brought their own rifles, uniforms, cannons etc
Kids of 13 went and fought donyoubthink they were land owners?



sly279
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24 Feb 2018, 7:05 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't believe many of these "Democratic senators" would "ban guns." Many Democrats hunt, too.

As long as they go along with the rabid anti gun ones they it doesn’t matter. Just like soldiers who saw and knew about the killing of Jews were accomplishes and tried as such. They obviously don’t disagree with the gun control as they vote the party line on it and say nothing against it.
They support senator Murphy as he goes to congress every day demanding gun control they support the senators from California as they call for gun control. Gun control is always voted on by party lines, nearly every single democrat votes for the gun control bills and republicans vote against them. So they just as guilty as the democrats who push and write the bills.

This is why democrat gun owners usually vote for republicans. If they dropped gun control they’d get a lot more votes instead they push people away. They get voted out and republicans get control over congress congested democrats congrats. You’d think they’d learn from he past but no they have to tout the party line or else.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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24 Feb 2018, 7:22 pm

sly279 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
For one thing, back then, many of the people who have guns today wouldn't have been allowed to own one. The Bill of Rights was written for land owners.

That’s not true. As the army back then was made up of volunteers who brought their own rifles, uniforms, cannons etc
Kids of 13 went and fought donyoubthink they were land owners?

If they were indentured servants theit boss would have provided them arms which wasn't really theirs. It's probable their fathers owned land though. Land was a very big deal back then. Landowners wanted all the rights and most of them were male. I suspect it's because they paid property taxes and wanted to have complete say in all political matters and of course they would demand to keep their guns but they were classist in the time of slavery and servants which they would never want owning firearms. So, they were discriminatory about who owned guns. Male and landowner is who they had in mind when they penned the second amendment.



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24 Feb 2018, 7:36 pm

sly279 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
For one thing, back then, many of the people who have guns today wouldn't have been allowed to own one. The Bill of Rights was written for land owners.

That’s not true. As the army back then was made up of volunteers who brought their own rifles, uniforms, cannons etc
Kids of 13 went and fought donyoubthink they were land owners?

Exactly. Men of a certain age (most often, 16 years) were eligible to enlist in the U.S. Continental Army (and later, the Navy). It was even easier to enlist in local township militias which ended up attached to continental units. One of my revolutionary ancestors, Stephen Greeley Spaulding (yes, a much older cousin to Horace "Go west, young man" Greeley) had an older brother who enlisted as a continental at age 19 years. Stephen was age 12 years at the time, so he assisted their family as a cook (families or "camp followers," were often attached to units of continentals and militia). When he was 14 years of age, he enlisted as a drummer (an unarmed linesman who would signal commands from officers). Finally, at age 16 years, Stephen was promoted to serve as a continental himself and continued as such until the end of the war.

Would such a family enjoy just one musket belonging to the "head of household?" Of course, not.

And, it wasn't only men who knew how to use a firearm sufficiently, Deborah Sampson ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Sampson ) served as a male soldier named "Pvt. Robert Shurtleff" during the last two years of the war where she was wounded in battle. Paul Revere himself lobbied the Continental Congress to award her a military pension. She became the first openly FtM transvestite soldier in the nation's history. Several women served temporarily and collectively as the semi-fictionalized "Molly Pitcher," and would step in and take over firing canons, muskets and other weapons as needed. They certainly knew how to do so.


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25 Feb 2018, 7:25 am

On another forum I raised the point about what would really have been meant by "well regulated militia".Not only did gun supporters say that it definitely referred to all individuals,but one person said that 'well regulated' means 'well equipped'. As long as there are people with no qualms about making up fictitious meanings of words in the 2nd amendment,it will always be difficult to get the right balance for gun control.


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AspieUtah
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25 Feb 2018, 9:11 am

pluto wrote:
On another forum I raised the point about what would really have been meant by "well regulated militia".Not only did gun supporters say that it definitely referred to all individuals,but one person said that 'well regulated' means 'well equipped'. As long as there are people with no qualms about making up fictitious meanings of words in the 2nd amendment,it will always be difficult to get the right balance for gun control.

Well, let us actually read what the U.S. Supreme Court determined in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008). This very matter was discussed at length at pages 22 through 24 of the Opinion of the Court ( https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/pdf/07-290P.ZO ) wherein at pages 23 and 24, the Court's summary of the matter stated that "...the adjective "well-regulated" implies nothing more than the imposition of proper discipline and training. See Johnson 1619 ("Regulate": "To adjust by rule or method"); Rawle 121–122; cf. Va. Declaration of Rights §13 (1776), in 7 Thorpe 3812, 3814 (referring to "a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms")."

In other words, a militia includes all of "[We] the People," and being well-regulated means "proper discipline and training." Given that The U.S. Supreme Court is the final word on the matter regarding the Constitution for the United States of America, the matter is closed for now, and the quoted comments of others are certainly not fictitious.


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25 Feb 2018, 11:51 am

I accept what regulated means but it doesn't mean 'well equipped' in the sense of individuals having assault rifles that
can kill hundreds of people in a matter of minutes.


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