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Basic Income should be a basic right

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RainbowUnion
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07 Mar 2018, 2:07 pm

Ancient Rome was a horrible society, in spite of their technical achievements. Now, in most of the West, you've got the very same thing.


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Daniel89
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07 Mar 2018, 2:12 pm

RainbowUnion wrote:
Ancient Rome was a horrible society, in spite of their technical achievements. Now, in most of the West, you've got the very same thing.


You sound very immature. The Modern Western civilisation is the best civilisation is the best that has ever existed. Where would you rather live than the west? Which society do you think has superior cultural values? Which society has better civil rights? Which society has better quality of life?



DarthMetaKnight
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07 Mar 2018, 2:12 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
There may be enough for everyone now but if you continue to pay people to have children they cannot look after eventually there won't be.


Are you seriously suggesting that socialism contributes to overpopulation?

Most of the countries that have high population growth rates are third world countries. Some third world countries are Stalinist/fascist dictatorships, but the vast majority of third world countries are conservative hyper-capitalist countries.

Meanwhile, the birth rate in Europe is below replacement level. It's absurd to claim that socialism leads to overpopulation. The data strongly suggests otherwise.

People tend to have more kids when they believe that many of the kids will die of deadly diseases. Most of the countries that are experiencing population booms are countries that only recently introduced modern medicine.

Europe also went through a population boom when modern medicine was invented. Reactionary as*holes like Thomas Malthus cried disaster, and yet everything turned out okay in the end.


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07 Mar 2018, 2:13 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
For a few years they could all live on a tropical Island or something wait for us to die off and then their children inherit the earth.

Sounds like they'd have the joy of rediscovering farm equipment, even if the gathering implements were largely automated, they'd have to organize the logistics, look into their pesticide chemistry, and have to admit to themselves as well that they'd lost nearly all of the dishes they enjoyed eating. They'd also have to man their own power plants, handle their own water and sewage, keep their roads paved... from the sound of things I'm not sure why they'd want to bother coming back to the mainland for all that work.

If the rich were heavily black and green block sorts (ie. anarcho primitivists) I'd be deeply concerned. That they really enjoy the finer things in life it tells me they need us as much as, if not more than, we need them.


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Daniel89
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07 Mar 2018, 2:16 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
There may be enough for everyone now but if you continue to pay people to have children they cannot look after eventually there won't be.


Are you seriously suggesting that socialism contributes to overpopulation?

Most of the countries that have high population growth rates are third world countries. Some third world countries are Stalinist/fascist dictatorships, but the vast majority of third world countries are conservative hyper-capitalist countries.

Meanwhile, the birth rate in Europe is below replacement level. It's absurd to claim that socialism leads to overpopulation. The data strongly suggests otherwise.

People tend to have more kids when they believe that many of the kids will die of deadly diseases. Most of the countries that are experiencing population booms are countries that only recently introduced modern medicine.

Europe also went through a population boom when modern medicine was invented. Reactionary as*holes like Thomas Malthus cried disaster, and yet everything turned out okay in the end.


No socialism does not lead to overpopulation it leads to famine. Which third world countries are you saying are "hyper capitalist"?



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07 Mar 2018, 2:19 pm

RainbowUnion wrote:
Ancient Rome was a horrible society, in spite of their technical achievements. Now, in most of the West, you've got the very same thing.


... in America perhaps.

Northern Europe seems to be heading in the right direction.


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RainbowUnion
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07 Mar 2018, 2:20 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
RainbowUnion wrote:
Ancient Rome was a horrible society, in spite of their technical achievements. Now, in most of the West, you've got the very same thing.


You sound very immature. The Modern Western civilisation is the best civilisation is the best that has ever existed. Where would you rather live than the west? Which society do you think has superior cultural values? Which society has better civil rights? Which society has better quality of life?


We have the most advanced technology ever. That doesn't make our society good. My measure of a good society is its HUMANISM and in that the West is one of the worst societies in the history of man.

Not everything should be MONEY MONEY MONEY ME ME ME. In the US, nobody gives a crap about the sick or the old, and if you have money, you are fine.

Sitting Bull was part of Buffalo Bills Wild West show during the latter part of his life. All he had to do was sit there and be Sitting Bull. While he was in NYC, what he saw DISGUSTED HIM. He was in the middle of what was even then clearly a mega city full of disgusting poverty and greed. His comment was "You people know how to make everything and distribute nothing". Among Native Americans, everyone in the tribe was cared for. The elderly were not in mortal terror of having nothing in their old age. No one was destitute unless the whole tribe was. And that's exactly how I think things should be.


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RainbowUnion
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07 Mar 2018, 2:22 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
RainbowUnion wrote:
Ancient Rome was a horrible society, in spite of their technical achievements. Now, in most of the West, you've got the very same thing.


... in America perhaps.

Northern Europe seems to be heading in the right direction.


You still think this after Brexit?


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07 Mar 2018, 2:27 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
No socialism does not lead to overpopulation it leads to famine.


Famine is more common in authoritarian socialist regimes.

Holodomor and The Great Leap Forward were products of authoritarianism. In democratic socialist regimes, this sort of thing rarely happens.

... and let's not forget the dust bowl of Depression-era America. Hyper-capitalism caused it. FDR cured it with the New Deal. That's why so many people consider him to be one of the greatest American presidents of all time, right up there with Lincoln and Washington.

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Which third world countries are you saying are "hyper capitalist"?


Check out this map of countries with universal health care.

Image

Notice a pattern?


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07 Mar 2018, 2:27 pm

RainbowUnion wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
RainbowUnion wrote:
Ancient Rome was a horrible society, in spite of their technical achievements. Now, in most of the West, you've got the very same thing.


... in America perhaps.

Northern Europe seems to be heading in the right direction.


You still think this after Brexit?


I was referring to Scandinavia.


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07 Mar 2018, 2:28 pm

RainbowUnion wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
RainbowUnion wrote:
Ancient Rome was a horrible society, in spite of their technical achievements. Now, in most of the West, you've got the very same thing.


You sound very immature. The Modern Western civilisation is the best civilisation is the best that has ever existed. Where would you rather live than the west? Which society do you think has superior cultural values? Which society has better civil rights? Which society has better quality of life?


We have the most advanced technology ever. That doesn't make our society good. My measure of a good society is its HUMANISM and in that the West is one of the worst societies in the history of man.

Not everything should be MONEY MONEY MONEY ME ME ME. In the US, nobody gives a crap about the sick or the old, and if you have money, you are fine.

Sitting Bull was part of Buffalo Bills Wild West show during the latter part of his life. All he had to do was sit there and be Sitting Bull. While he was in NYC, what he saw DISGUSTED HIM. He was in the middle of what was even then clearly a mega city full of disgusting poverty and greed. His comment was "You people know how to make everything and distribute nothing". Among Native Americans, everyone in the tribe was cared for. The elderly were not in mortal terror of having nothing in their old age. No one was destitute unless the whole tribe was. And that's exactly how I think things should be.


This form of racism called "Noble savage" where you idealise a group of people as though they were not people. Native Americans killed people, enslaved people just like any other people. I am assuming you are a child because only a child could not see the that the modern western world is the most caring society in history. Through most of history Slavery was legal it was the western world that made this illegal internationally whilst technically illegal there are still many countries that practice it a lot.



Daniel89
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07 Mar 2018, 2:29 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
RainbowUnion wrote:
Ancient Rome was a horrible society, in spite of their technical achievements. Now, in most of the West, you've got the very same thing.


... in America perhaps.

Northern Europe seems to be heading in the right direction.


Northern Europe is becoming worse we are losing our civil rights and our governments are importing millions of people without consulting us.



RainbowUnion
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07 Mar 2018, 2:33 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
RainbowUnion wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
RainbowUnion wrote:
Ancient Rome was a horrible society, in spite of their technical achievements. Now, in most of the West, you've got the very same thing.


You sound very immature. The Modern Western civilisation is the best civilisation is the best that has ever existed. Where would you rather live than the west? Which society do you think has superior cultural values? Which society has better civil rights? Which society has better quality of life?


We have the most advanced technology ever. That doesn't make our society good. My measure of a good society is its HUMANISM and in that the West is one of the worst societies in the history of man.

Not everything should be MONEY MONEY MONEY ME ME ME. In the US, nobody gives a crap about the sick or the old, and if you have money, you are fine.

Sitting Bull was part of Buffalo Bills Wild West show during the latter part of his life. All he had to do was sit there and be Sitting Bull. While he was in NYC, what he saw DISGUSTED HIM. He was in the middle of what was even then clearly a mega city full of disgusting poverty and greed. His comment was "You people know how to make everything and distribute nothing". Among Native Americans, everyone in the tribe was cared for. The elderly were not in mortal terror of having nothing in their old age. No one was destitute unless the whole tribe was. And that's exactly how I think things should be.


This form of racism called "Noble savage" where you idealise a group of people as though they were not people. Native Americans killed people, enslaved people just like any other people. I am assuming you are a child because only a child could not see the that the modern western world is the most caring society in history. Through most of history Slavery was legal it was the western world that made this illegal internationally whilst technically illegal there are still many countries that practice it a lot.


I'm 41, and I stand by what I posted. Most caring society HAHAHAHAHA what garbage. You've never had to live in the US, that much is clear to me.


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Edgar Allan Poe, The Cask of Amontillado


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07 Mar 2018, 2:34 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
RainbowUnion wrote:
There comes a time when you need to tear it all down and start over and IMO we are there. Just like Ancient Rome.


What followed the fall of Rome? The Dark Ages. We have something great right now compared to the rest of history, compared to other countries would could tear it all down for the hopes of Utopia but the chances are things will get worse. The western world is heading in the wrong way governments are becoming more authoritarian, Multinational companies and the governments of the world are merging with each other the threat of a one world government is a real one. We should try to reverse this but "tearing it all down" is throwing away centuries of hard work by working class people, women and persecuted minorities.


If the West undergoes a revolution, it will be different from the Fall of Rome.

The Roman Empire fell because it became weak and then Barbarians from the outside came into the country and tore it apart, leading to the Dark Ages.

The West isn't weak. If the West undergoes a revolution, it will likely come from within, not from outside. Outsiders don't pose much of a threat to the West, but the tormented workers within the West could easily alter it. All they need is more information.

We won't create a new dark age because most of us have social democrat leanings.


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Daniel89
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07 Mar 2018, 2:34 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
No socialism does not lead to overpopulation it leads to famine.


Famine is more common in authoritarian socialist regimes.

Holodomor and The Great Leap Forward were products of authoritarianism. In democratic socialist regimes, this sort of thing rarely happens.

... and let's not forget the dust bowl of Depression-era America. Hyper-capitalism caused it. FDR cured it with the New Deal. That's why so many people consider him to be one of the greatest American presidents of all time, right up there with Lincoln and Washington.

Quote:
Which third world countries are you saying are "hyper capitalist"?


Check out this map of countries with universal health care.

Image

Notice a pattern?


Socialism is Authoritarian you are taking away people rights. The great depression was caused by government printing money decreasing the value of money thus forcing people to invest in the stock market not to see their savings devalued.



RainbowUnion
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07 Mar 2018, 2:35 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
RainbowUnion wrote:
Ancient Rome was a horrible society, in spite of their technical achievements. Now, in most of the West, you've got the very same thing.


... in America perhaps.

Northern Europe seems to be heading in the right direction.


Northern Europe is becoming worse we are losing our civil rights and our governments are importing millions of people without consulting us.


Would those people you object to be Muslims, and you object to them for that reason? My understanding is that this was a major cause of Brexit.


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"It must be understood, that neither by word nor deed had I given Fortunato cause to doubt my good-will. I continued as was my wont, to smile in his face, and he did not perceive that my smile was at the thought of his immolation."

Edgar Allan Poe, The Cask of Amontillado