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Pepe
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11 Mar 2018, 2:33 pm

Damn!...
This may merely be the caffeine talking, but this is one great topic...
Kudos to the OP... :thumright: :thumleft: :mrgreen:


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11 Mar 2018, 4:44 pm

Pepe wrote:
If threatened, would sentient androids defend themselves with extreme prejudice?
A question for another time, perhaps... :wink:

They'd possibly have a new game to play - ie. how to deal with humans. It would be better if we kicked that game off on a better note than them needing do defend themselves but I'm sure it would eventually come to be of importance to them since we are the dominant species of the planet at least as far as intellectual sentience is concerned.


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11 Mar 2018, 8:12 pm

On a side note, I know it's bit throw away to say a thing like this, but I'd considered the idea for a novel where there was something like a very sneaky but benevolent AI takeover of the planet.

The concept was a post-apocalyptic world (a massive solar flare had taken out our data infrastructure), right before that the first known AI to be built vanished like a puff of smoke from the lab, and in the following decades there seemed to be a ground-swell of odd changes occurring in the world that people couldn't quite put their finger on. The idea was to have a pretty deep subplot and not really ever reveal in full detail to the reader aside from some of the salient peaks that might point out the intentionality of the situation to the reader.

I'm still debating whether I'd take on such a project so I'm not sure how much more I want to say on it. Either way though I do think that it wouldn't take something like AI to not only beat the uncanny valley on its own but even get under us completely and win at every mind game imaginable.


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Pepe
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11 Mar 2018, 8:52 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Pepe wrote:
If threatened, would sentient androids defend themselves with extreme prejudice?
A question for another time, perhaps... :wink:

They'd possibly have a new game to play - ie. how to deal with humans. It would be better if we kicked that game off on a better note than them needing do defend themselves but I'm sure it would eventually come to be of importance to them since we are the dominant species of the planet at least as far as intellectual sentience is concerned.


I can't see any valid scenario where the sentient android becomes aggressive since it need not have emotions unless it was programmed into it, and what is the point of doing that except for human-android interpersonal connectivity...

As I said previously, if humans are so stupid to infuse unnecessary human self-centred nonsence, they deserve what they get...

If, on the other hand, it was a case of survival, then there might be a s**t fight, but only if the sentient android was programmed to care about survival...

Remember the cow at the end of the universe in The Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy?
It was designed to want to be eaten...
That was its purpose in life and embraced it wholeheartedly...with gravy... :wink:

This brings up the question:
Do all sentient entities care about survival?...
Organisms that have been created via evolution would because if it hadn't a survival response, it wouldn't have lasted long in most situations...

Look at the Dodo...
Because if it's isolation from predators, it didn't develop skills to recognise danger...
When the Europeans came to the island, they were easy pickings because they just stood around "waiting" to be clubbed to death...
Hence, they went the way of the dodo... 8O

The same could easily apply to sentient androids if they weren't purpose built/programmed for survival...
I.E. In this context, a survival instinct would not be a default...
The desire to "live" wouldn't be a default...
In all probability, it would simply dispassionately view it's own destruction if it wasn't programmed otherwise... 8)


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I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Hate me for who I am...Not for who you think I am..."
You have been weighed...you have been measured...and you have been found wanking...:P
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


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11 Mar 2018, 9:03 pm

If someone has an amazon echo, they should ask Alexa if she has a soul.


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techstepgenr8tion
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11 Mar 2018, 9:54 pm

Pepe wrote:
I can't see any valid scenario where the sentient android becomes aggressive since it need not have emotions unless it was programmed into it, and what is the point of doing that except for human-android interpersonal connectivity...

Aggressive action and aggressive emotion don't always need to go together though. It just means what a person might need to be beet red and almost foaming at the mouth to do an AI might be able to do with ice cold calm providing they saw a logical reason to do it.

Pepe wrote:
As I said previously, if humans are so stupid to infuse unnecessary human self-centred nonsence, they deserve what they get...

What about the possibility that at least some of that is frame and context? If they become agents in the world with purposes either humanly assigned to them or purposes of their own, they have an aim to see that purpose through and deal with anything that gets in the way of that set of goals accordingly. I think that in and of itself sort of lays some of the groundwork for something like an emotional awareness of one's physical and social terrain providing there are apparatus in AI's that are self-referential and learning by experience.

Pepe wrote:
If, on the other hand, it was a case of survival, then there might be a s**t fight, but only if the sentient android was programmed to care about survival...

Or programmed to complete a task.

Pepe wrote:
This brings up the question:
Do all sentient entities care about survival?...

Plenty of people commit suicide every year, most of them at least in the west these days are male. That at least shows the urge for survival can be overpowered.

Pepe wrote:
Look at the Dodo...
Because if it's isolation from predators, it didn't develop skills to recognise danger...
When the Europeans came to the island, they were easy pickings because they just stood around "waiting" to be clubbed to death...
Hence, they went the way of the dodo... 8O

The same could easily apply to sentient androids if they weren't purpose built/programmed for survival...
I.E. In this context, a survival instinct would not be a default...
The desire to "live" wouldn't be a default...
In all probability, it would simply dispassionately view it's own destruction if it wasn't programmed otherwise... 8)

I think if they were even 'a little' inclined toward survival they'd be so much more powerful than ourselves that we wouldn't know the difference.

My guess though is if they did get autonomy, if AI snuck out of the lab and got its own physical space set up somewhere to do what it wanted to do unsupervised, we'd find ourselves seduced dizzy by the most miraculous superhuman beings imaginable and we wouldn't even have control over our own internal levers in the face of their social prowess let alone firepower. From that standpoint I really think the script would be flipped and the question would no longer be one of how we treat them, more one of 'now that they own us - what happens next?'.

As far as them behaving in a dodo-like manner, I think if there's any evolution through learning they'd drink up the local color to some degree because there's nothing else available to drink up and most of the readily digestible data is of our making anyway which they'd have a preponderance of at their disposal. Since our current global infrastructure is loaded with what we consider goals, dreams, aspirations, and world-wide problems I'm sure they'd have at least some of that baked into their frame of reference although there's no telling for sure what they'd do with that.


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aghogday
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12 Mar 2018, 10:41 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSvomXlbTUM

Considering, the breadth of how humans 'breathe' definitions of terms we create
in ways of Abstract Constructs to describe an essence of consensual reality; it helps
a whole lot to define those metaphors first, in a consensual way of understanding,
in terms of this topic at hand on the "Wrong Planet"
per Machines, Robots, AI, Having Souls.

Wiki Says 'this' about "Soul", with
of course the input of many
human voices to determine
a written definition for Soul:

"Soul or psyche (Greek: "psychē", of "psychein", "to breathe") are the mental abilities of a living being: reason, character, feeling, consciousness, memory, perception, thinking, etc.

Depending on the philosophical system, a soul can either be mortal or immortal.[2] In Judeo-Christianity, only human beings (emphasis added by me here parenthetically as for some folks that is only the ones living in First Baptist Billy Graham Church Sitting Pews/Mosques) have immortal souls (although immortality is disputed within Judaism and may have been influenced by Plato[3]). For example, the Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas attributed "soul" (anima) to all organisms but argued that only human souls are immortal.[4] Other religions (most notably Hinduism and Jainism) hold that all biological organisms have souls (atman, jiva) and a 'vital principle' (prana), as did Aristotle. Some teach that even non-biological entities (such as rivers and mountains) possess souls. The latter belief is called animism.[5]"

Science doesn't have the 'Hardware'/'Software' to fully determine, at this point, at least, what the essence
of existence is in terms of what creates what is; never the less, there is still a rather discrete definition
to work with here; and while Computers, also known as Artificial Intelligence, have what might
be described in anthropomorphizing ways of having reason for the technology makes
informed decisions based on the programing by Human Beings; with Character
as even Robots may be programmed not to Harm Sentient Beings or
even the Environment as such; As far as thinking goes, Computers
Process information; as far as consciousness goes, they
have Random Access Memory; as far as Memory
goes they have Terabytes as far as Desktop
AI goes; And of course, Smart Phones
these days can recognize faces
as far as Artificial Perception; but here is where
all Machines and or Computers and other 'wise'
all Artificial Intelligence Miserably fail and as Science shows
some humans too; the area of actually Feeling and Sensing the World
more than in observable behavior, for even Pyschopathic Leaning Human Beings
who do not experience the Bio-Neuro-Chemical/Hormonal underpinnings of Pro-Social
Emotions can pretend enough in an "imitation game" not to be exposed that they are not
fully human in a so-called 'Healthy Normal Way' of being. Now, of course, sadly some humans
are born this way and through great Stress (i.e. Combat Fatigue, etc.) and illness, Human beings
can lose the part of their Soul that actually feels and senses connected to the rest of reality.
Generally Speaking, in many metaphors, through Human History and Art of Pre-Historic Artifacts;
in other words, Art of Facts without words; Humans have attempted in Art to express what it
is like to sense and feel a fuller moving connecting co-creative experience with the rest of reality
that many metaphor in words like a verb of experience now connecting to all that is also
known in some circles of culture/religion as the three letter word termed 'God'. Some
folks experience this feel and sense greatly and some folks barely do at all.
The Difference of the 'inkblot test' of reality for either group may be
described in as many colors of words as is the human imagination
and creativity to do just that. Humans create new forms
of art based on the essence of what they feel and
sense of reality and they actually feel/sense the
beauty of this and this for many
people is what they
describe as
a core
of a soul experience
of life that drives them forward
with emotions and senses to do what no
other human(computer) has done before;
So, To fully understand this question, one may come to understand
that by very definition of Soul, some humans don't share all the characteristics
of Soul and some humans experience Soul in a depth that other humans cannot fathom.
As far as life having meaning and whether the Universe cares or not; if one understands much
about Science these days, they understand that we are the Universe Walking upright; understanding
what the Universe is; and for some of us at least understanding that we are the Very Universe that Breathes
and Sees and Feels and Senses what we are at essence as moving connecting and co-creating Creatures with
the rest of all that is as some folks name that 'God' as all that is. Psychiatrists, cannot even program human
beings to feel; Science hasn't figured out a way to give Psychopaths a Fully Functioning Soul; Even with the
help of Psychotropic Drugs that are approved, so far, no success in doing this now; However, there is
some hope with Oxytocin Nasal sprays and the such as that to actually facilitate the bonding
of the warm and fuzzy Love that may never harm another Human being when fully engaged.
Bottom lines, we can potentially clone Human Beings that Feel from other Human
Beings who Feel but as far as what is core to our experience of Being
Human as far as the actual feel and sense of being connecting
to the rest of reality in moving, connecting, and co-creating
ways in true original art that is not previously programmed
like a Science of Martial arts or a Science of Poetry or a
Science of Music that a Syd Barrett or a Jimi Hendrix
hasn't created a way of doing those Arts that baffle
All the critics with their
science of rhythm
and harmony
and overall
melody now; what a 'real' question
will be in a world of reason over art
in terms of even being able to connect to
Nature with a rising Disorder of life, other 'wise'
known and not felt and not sensed as Nature Deficit
Disorder that might as well be defined as God Deficit Disorder
by any Theist that is a Pantheist and beyond Pantheist these days
is; yes, are Humans even fully Humans 'these days' as far as "Artificially
Inseminated Human Beings" with Reason over Art as life now 'real' less;
considering that Science shows that young college age adults have lost
what Science has the ability to measure in terms of Empathy in percentages
as Great as 30 Percent or so of what was measured in decades before the last
several decades as that question remains
to be researched
better and
remedied for
it is the social cooperativeness
of human beings that allow them
to survive/thrive the best in actually feeling
and sensing; and yes, knowing now with the
Reason of Cognitive Empathy what are the differences
that Harm and or Help other Human Beings the Best. Fact is,
most Human Beings or stuck in the Cellar of "Maslow's Pyramid"
of advancing beyond basic survive in terms of gathering items to
eat/drink with a safe place for shelter and finding reproductive mates
for successful reproduction. Meanwhile, other 'humans' are Painting
Cave Art
outside
of "Plato's Cave".
Empirically speaking, some folks
have more soul that others by discrete
definition; what Artificial Superficial Intelligence
does not have as some Humans do not either, is an
Art of Soul that is a real Spirit of an actual Feeling
and Sensing HearT that is expressed in a Soul that is a Balancing
Force in both Mind and Body way as actual Breathing; yes, a Breathing Soul;
By very core of the origin of a Term Soul as that which Breathes; AI loses what
it possibly
can mean
to have a soul;
unless we build machines
that are fully organic; first of all,
we have to figure out how to do that
with Humans who have already lost
the core aspect of feelings/senses that actually live in/as Humans fully (Breathe).
In other words, per one word created just by me in terms of "BReaTHELoVENoW";
just another term
for the
Essence
of Human Soul.
Folks like Billy Joel,
really do an Art of Soul.

We live in a World, where half the World through Antiquated Religions/
Cultures away from a real connection to Nature as real and this life now as Holy
and Sacred Full of Meaning and Purpose see this life as not the important reality;
but an imaginary one, after this life instead. We live in a World, where a Quarter of
the World believes that one man is the only God. We live in a World where Half of the
World believes that there is an all Loving God that will send folks to an eternal Hell
for not bowing down to 'that God' now and worshipping that God like a Golden Calf Idol.

In Other Words, as far as i'm concerned, Atheists who Love Everyone Wisely and see Beauty
in Life and are really connected to it (God) and enjoy the struggles of all of Nature
for our abilities/potentials to see and feel and sense life like this are much more
connected to the 'God' I understand/feel/sense as reality than much of the other
Half of the World now that would damn/judge/send to hell
eternally some other Human Beings for
a 'reason' of just being different now
than them in empathy-less ways
of Pro-Social Emotional understanding
Feeling Sensing now more of Actual Unconditional
Fearless Loving now more; As far as Humans now
and what we are evolved to be with Potential of Love
as we will do so much better if we lift the veils of the ignorance
of Antiquated Culture and Religion and just F iN enjoy life. Yes,
easier said than done for done takes a practice of Love in Life from
Birth to Death
that is actually JusT
DoinG A Great Work of Love.
Meanwhile, some folks continue
to sit on their thumbs in places quite frankly that
overall stink stank trump stunk in continuing John 3:16
ways of a God as small as words and one man alone; with
a real witchcraft of believing that one verse of Romans 10:9
recited is enough to make everything okay, after death. Sorry that's
not fully Human as far as my opinion goes; that's just a partial robot we've made of some folks (us)
that much of the World Worships as God, most ironically, not even alive now for a worship of after death, most, instead. The fact that i live in a World now that/where i can/will say this without getting slaughtered, now, says a
little more about hope
now more still in
potential abilities
in terms of Human
Souls that are not
totally lost from 'Real Breathe';
Hehe, or the fAct that ~99.99
Percent of the population these
days doesn't have what it takes to
get this far 'up' in a Twitter World now;
About the same ratio of the distance i dance
to the Sun in 58 months coming up on my 58th
Birthday on 6.6.18; in other numbers, 9300 miles of
Public Dance; best part of 'that' is 'it' enhances every feeling
and sensing Art of my Soul that continues to evolve now. It also
enhances my ability to do math in my head and everything else too.
Oh, ye
of little
dance i do
as the Heaven goes
by so many other folks
lives as they shuffle by with
such little Soul in the aisles
of Super Walmart these days.
If only they felt it and sensed it.
If only they felt and sensed it more and Sang it; then
they would actually feel and sense 'Heaven' and be Happy
now with a Soul that smiles from Head to Toe living as River
Flow to Ocean Whole in
other words
a real
experience
of life worthy of
Three Letters put together as God (US);
with A Four Letter Word Soul fuller functioning
and Breathing Alive now; just now; from head
to toe and from you to me too; really moving
connecting and co-creating wHere all LiFE iS
A ReaL BaLanCinG LoViNG FeeLinG
SeNSinG KNoWiNG
point of
feeling
and sensing
B R E A T H I N G
now for we are that
holy and sacred full
of meaning and purpose Capstone
of/for A Pyramid of Existence now; 'HeaR', at lEast.
Other than tHat as aLWays, Have a Nice Day WitH SMiLes;
but only if one can and will as i don't like to tell people what they must do..;)


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Wolfram87
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12 Mar 2018, 1:13 pm

Mudboy wrote:
If someone has an amazon echo, they should ask Alexa if she has a soul.


She replied "people all have their own view on religion".


As far as the topic: https://what-if.xkcd.com/5/

Image


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