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ASPartOfMe
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01 Sep 2018, 1:03 pm

hobojungle wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Arabic man kills someone: terrorist.

Black and/or Hispanic man kills someone: thug.

White man kills someone: he was mentally ill and we as a society failed him.

:roll:


This. :evil:


Not on wrong planet so much, this thread is named incel terrorism.


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01 Sep 2018, 2:06 pm

Thank you for your input.



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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01 Sep 2018, 5:28 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Arabic man kills someone: terrorist.

Black and/or Hispanic man kills someone: thug.

White man kills someone: he was mentally ill and we as a society failed him.

:roll:


You're just saying that because you can't understand the suffering of the white man, because of how sheltered from real suffering (you know, the kind incels know and we don't) you are. /s



techstepgenr8tion
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01 Sep 2018, 5:52 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
You're just saying that because you can't understand the suffering of the white man, because of how sheltered from real suffering (you know, the kind incels know and we don't) you are. /s

All I can say is I'll pray for you to have a happy life, happy friends and caretakers, roses and warm hugs from the universe, and in return if the world could just give you back one sliver of mild criticism wrapped in white light, fairies, unicorns, and sugar bears - that you make a mess when you jump around in things you aren't up to the task of understanding.


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01 Sep 2018, 6:13 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
And yet he acted out his issues on others in a violent way, which apparently is becoming part of the incel ideology--that they have the right to act out violently, because society has been so hard on them by denying them the ability to get their dick wet. It's so disgustingly self-indulgent and entitled, and shows what is wrong with the mentality of men like this.

I think this is where we had our disagreement earlier though. Millions of people are holding on to their decency by their very fingertips. If life gets dismal enough they break, in some direction. The overwhelming number of people in such narrative spaces resort to some type of vice or find some other way. A small enough number to make the news cave to the urge to violence, and they do so largely goaded on by the same thing that's tormenting other people (incel or just suffering in other ways) - ie. being raised with the idea that they're precious, that they have inherent value, all to find out as adults - to their horrifying disillusionment, that the value of human life is akin to the value of insect life and that our agreements not to harm other people are largely due to our desire to prevent our own suffering. An insect we just smash without thought, a human being judged to have the value of an insect has a much longer and colder road of life ahead of them. Some people, like this guy, take the line of reasoning that if life is absolutely meaningless and that they're suffering - in a role that the world is going to wipe its arse with them for anyway and throw them in the grave when its through - why not do something truly random, something truly chaotic, if it breaks the constant drumming sensation of absolute life failure that they've been consigned an uneasy and unnegotiated submission to. Some people at the bottom of the article offered that he'll now be involuntarily incelibate when Bubba gets a hold of him - quite likely so, and I doubt he'll look back on what he did fondly.

I do tend to worry that this is a time where we'll really start seeing society's demons coming to the surface. Not sure how it will pan out but I think, in the end, we'll need to deeply reconsider how we relate to one another as a species and we'll realize that if we forfeit human dignity or only reserve it for 'the winners' we'll have a solid dystopia on our hands. People at the top can indeed laugh or brush the sweat off their foreheads and be grateful it's someone else and not them suffering the indignity of being a non-human human or a western untouchable, at least until they get laid off - permanently - and from there they can be homeless, or barely cling to subsistence, get treated like they'd never existed, and it'll be loads of fun as all their dreams, all their grand visions of who they are, crumble.

Considering everything you have said, would you have reduced that guy's sentence or given him the full whack?



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01 Sep 2018, 6:22 pm

domineekee wrote:
Considering everything you have said, would you have reduced that guy's sentence or given him the full whack?

I'd say that I at least think I'm of one mind with Sam Harris on this one - ie. if someone does a crime you put them away for purely pragmatic reasons, ie. their inability to do it again. There's no choice but to give him either the full sentence or something exactly on par with any sentence anyone gets for similar kinds of misconduct and harm to their fellow man or woman. We're nations with laws that we enforce not to be cruel but because there's really no alternative - ie. if you do certain things, certain things in turn need to happen in order to keep everyone else safe.

What I object to is people jumping right to the good and evil prescription. That's great if you're in a monarchy, a dictatorship, or in a theocratic society, its useless if you're attempting to live in a free or liberal society because the idea would be that you want to understand problems maybe not even purely for just preventing more of the same in the future but.. I don't know... even nerdier reasons like wanting to know how the world works and how to make things work even better across the board.


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techstepgenr8tion
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01 Sep 2018, 6:29 pm

To extract this down even further:

As far as incels, incels killing people, incels planning to harm or kill people - I'm completely against all of it.

All I've really been trying to say in this thread is I think I can see how the edges of this take shape. That's not condoning it, it's closer to saying that I think I've observed 2 H2 + O2 => H2O. It's not a moral endorsement, it's more like a proclamation that I'm seeing physics in motion and have an observation about those physics that may be relevant to the topic at hand.


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karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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01 Sep 2018, 10:19 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
You're just saying that because you can't understand the suffering of the white man, because of how sheltered from real suffering (you know, the kind incels know and we don't) you are. /s

All I can say is I'll pray for you to have a happy life, happy friends and caretakers, roses and warm hugs from the universe, and in return if the world could just give you back one sliver of mild criticism wrapped in white light, fairies, unicorns, and sugar bears - that you make a mess when you jump around in things you aren't up to the task of understanding.


A lesson in empathy for any incels who may be observing: when someone asks you to leave them alone, do so. Especially if they've asked you repeatedly. To do otherwise is what brings on labels like "creepy".

Just stow this paternalistic bullshit, and please leave me alone. I've asked you repeatedly and I've reported you already for ignoring my repeated requests to leave me alone. I don't take criticism from people who can't take basic instruction like "stop talking to me please". So stop talking to me, or I will report you again.



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02 Sep 2018, 7:14 am

domineekee wrote:
Considering everything you have said, would you have reduced that guy's sentence or given him the full whack?

Even though he did a very unjust thing, it's cruel to make him suffer in prison for years or decades, only to suffer unemployment after he's released. It would be better to give him the mercy of a painless death.


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02 Sep 2018, 8:45 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
domineekee wrote:
Considering everything you have said, would you have reduced that guy's sentence or given him the full whack?

Even though he did a very unjust thing, it's cruel to make him suffer in prison for years or decades, only to suffer unemployment after he's released. It would be better to give him the mercy of a painless death.

Oops, I didn't mean kill him. I was trying to gauge how deep Techstepgene8tion's sympathies ran for the murderer.



techstepgenr8tion
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02 Sep 2018, 12:25 pm

If I had to guess people might get bent out of shape at my suggestion because I'm implying that there may be forces or vectors much larger than the individual that are lighting the fuses and such thoughts are so odious to people that I often hear people like Dan Dennett or Matt Dillahunty saying they're compatibalists, ie. that they don't believe in the idea of libertarian free will, ie. a person being able to make uncaused decisions but.... there's still free will if you mean something else by it.

Part of the reason why I wouldn't lighten his sentence is that probably every man or woman in jail can thank similar math for how they ended up there or how they even ended up being who they are. One of the ingredients of crime seems to be IQ in the 80's range. That's not a moral decision, it's an accident of birth. While I can't have sympathy for heinous acts to some degree I have the empathy of knowing that if my IQ wasn't what it is, for what I've been put through in various ways (and have come to understand just what odd and complex stacks of suffering people can find that have nothing to do with race, gender, religion, etc. - no one has any idea whose going through what at a glance) I could say that I have no clue how I would have survived it if my IQ was in the 80's. In a way I could have been spared such a fate of, say, turning into a heroin addict or meth head to solve my problems (or slowly kill myself), robbing people for a fix, these are the sorts of solutions people reach for when life has put them in impossible places internally where - from what their own brain is telling them - they can't live another day being themselves without doing something about who they are, where they're at, and there are no solutions.

A highly intelligent person might be able to read all kinds of Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Dostoevsky, Jung, Joseph Campbell, and come up with enough home-made narratives to act as stepping stones over a series of years to narrowly pass the bullet of suicide, or crime, or whatever else. I really don't know what a person can do if they don't have the mental faculties to do that. This isn't something I'm saying about incels, rather it's something I'm saying about human coping mechanisms getting blown way out of their depths in general. This is also part of why I find how we currently do things in terms of the criminal justice system or even the precursory paths that sort of pipeline kids from school to prison. There's a destructive competition factor in our culture that seems to malignantly benefit from this and as automation starts taking everyone's jobs, for better or worse, most people will be living in glass houses in that sense.

Technically I'd also say that I don't have any particular attachment to the incel issue. It might not appear that way but the best way I can say it - I didn't grow up in the slums, get my life constantly threatened by gang members, or get forced to join a gang out of safety. If topics like that come up my lack of participation in such topics might seem to suggest that I don't care about such people, it's more like I can't speak intelligently on an experience I haven't had. What I do have, for part of my experience at least, does lead me to say that I do have a good grasp on what might make a toxic incel of the variety that might actually go out and do the kinds of things we're talking about. It's not a pet sympathy or any of that, it's just something that I think I can speak to with a useful degree of understanding.


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02 Sep 2018, 12:47 pm

In response to iq as a constituent part of the criminal psyche, I have to disagree rather strongly. Whilst I agree that many criminals face lives involving lawbreaking due to ineptitude, many have to be intelligent to hide their true nature, that behind their own psychological damage.

Petty criminals, ie. thieves, arsonists, abusers, etc. are not usually on the intelligent end because they have no means to survive otherwise, or control their emotions. They can't actively rationalise like most other people on the average end, usually around the 110 mark, and as a result have to turn to deviance.

With that in mind, most sociopaths are marked by high intelligence. This is actually one of the key factors behind the definition, perhaps observed through trend. As a result, I would personally come to the conclusion that most Incel (at least those that are likely to commit mass murders) have to be intelligent enough to hide, plot, and orchestrate such events.



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02 Sep 2018, 1:09 pm

I'd actually agree that if someone has antisocial tendencies, or is more than willing to eat the other dog running next to them, the intelligent person will be really good at distorting reality within the lines of the law - especially if they're quite socially successful (I have to think of socially successful and socially skilled as two importantly different things). These are the sorts of people who are willing to run a corporation into the ground to line their pockets, lie on TV to use people's sympathies, the wold unfortunately does have enough of these people running around and a fair amount of them work their way into the upper levels of politics.

I would be curious to see what happens if they are able to figure out something like a standardized profile of incel killers. My guess is that there will be a pretty steady profile, as there are for a lot of crimes. It could well be that IQ will be bimodal, or if it's not IQ it's some other impediment that accumulates enough stigma to achieve the same effect. What makes the whole thing more complex - I think anyone even going through such things, if some part of them knows they're better than this, they won't do it. When someone performs a mass act of violence it means that all of the safety catches in their brain were overpowered or switched off, and it's tough to say whether those safeguards just never properly developed in the person (which is indeed possible) or whether those safeguards were utterly overwhelmed over time.


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02 Sep 2018, 4:45 pm

There must be some smart people behindhand bars. What about Berni Madoff? Was Al Capone smart? Hideki Tojo was pretty smart and he got the death penalty.


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techstepgenr8tion
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02 Sep 2018, 4:54 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
There must be some smart people behindhand bars. What about Berni Madoff? Was Al Capone smart? Hideki Tojo was pretty smart and he got the death penalty.

There's no such thing as a perfect heuristic, and I'd never make a claim equivalent to that. I would make the educated guess that if you look at what percentage of people are in jail across ranges of IQ it's probably a distinctly small minority in all cases, ie. at least less than 5% even in the IQ ranges where criminality would be most common, but that it would probably be much lower in high IQ ranges. My guess as to why would be that people with high IQ's who want to do bad in the world have the resources to know how to do bad and do so within the parameters of the law. People who don't have those cognitive or even good-ol-boy network of attorneys and whatever else are somewhat forced to gamble with their odds and might cross their fingers that the drugs, guns, or whatever else their running illegally doesn't land them in jail.


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04 Sep 2018, 2:21 am

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Arabic man kills someone: terrorist.

Black and/or Hispanic man kills someone: thug.

White man kills someone: he was mentally ill and we as a society failed him.

:roll:


You're just saying that because you can't understand the suffering of the white man, because of how sheltered from real suffering (you know, the kind incels know and we don't) you are. /s


I tend to view this on a larger scale to include school shootings. The last twat in Texas who shot-up a school shot his "crush" first because she rejected him. A newspaper ran an odious article claiming she embarrassed him when he asked her out, but the real story was that she let him have it in front of a classroom because he had been harassing her for months.

This is part of a trend to blame women for sh_tty male behavior. The cries for "sympathy" for these idiots usually rest on the fact they had a white penis. If they had been anything other than an owner of a white penis, they would have been declared a terrorist or a thug. Furthermore, male violence is not a problem for women to solve. Modern men need to get their sh_t together, and their entitlement in check, and it has nothing to do with women.

And this is absolutely a gendered issue. Frustrated women don't go on killing sprees, and, no, because you can find a few odd examples of a minority of female mass shooters doesn't disprove this. Also, there's this idea that women should be endless fonts of nurturing to include the men that want to kill/maim us. If only we would be nicer to, or more nurturing towards these men, it would fix the issue. This is crap. I repeat: women are not to blame for sh_tty male behavior.


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