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Which Is Better?
a. Believe in Jesus. 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
b. Act like Jesus. 36%  36%  [ 8 ]
c. Both a and b. 18%  18%  [ 4 ]
d. None of the above. 41%  41%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 22

jrjones9933
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13 Jul 2018, 9:13 am

^Same, but I recall that Shekels or whatever weren't used as currency in trade. The Romans probably preferred people to use their coins. That gave the money changers a monopoly, and allowed them to raise prices. Of course, they'd have to buy the coins back from the priests, so there would have been collusion of some sort. No wonder they don't highlight that aspect in churches.


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13 Jul 2018, 10:08 am

The Jewish (non-Christian) historian Josephus wrote about Jesus as well as John the Baptist as an historical fact at the time. This record by Josephus, a "third party" is regarded as proving that Jesus, as well as John the Baptist were real people rather than mythical characters.

What fascinates me from a human perspective is that it's also believed that the Twelve Apostles were each martyred for their faith in Jesus as God after Jesus was crucified. If Jesus would have been a huxter, if Jesus and the Apostles had been running a lucrative scam of "smoke and mirrors" deceiving people, amassing wealth, etc then NO ONE can convince me that it was normal that all twelve apostles stuck to a bogus story of Jesus being God knowing the punishment would be their own death. Every one of them maintained their faith and died for that faith. None of them would have had ANYTHING to gain by "sticking to the story" knowing that by renouncing their faith they would preserve their own life.


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jrjones9933
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13 Jul 2018, 10:19 am

No serious historian accepts Josephus as an authority on facts, at least with regard to Antiquities of The Jews. Josephus title even suggests that he intended it as more of a compilation of things people had said rather than a critical history like The Jewish War.


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13 Jul 2018, 10:36 am

The standards of historical scholarship weren't very stringent in the Biblical Era.



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13 Jul 2018, 11:06 am

Well Jesus did exist. I mean there was an itenerant rabbi by the name of Jesus of Nazareth wandering around first century judea. Even the Talmud mentions him. So that points hard to argue.

Now as for acting like Jesus, I certainly try. I've yet to raise anyone from the dead but he's certainly far better than just about any other alternative role model.

Also someone mentioned indulgences. The truth is that the Church would offer indulgences for doing certain charitable works. Among them giving money for the poor. Now some greedy clergymen decided that they wanted to keep the money but it was hardly the lot. Afterwards they changed the rules to prevent these kinds of scams.



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13 Jul 2018, 2:55 pm

Believe in yourself; be yourself.



aghogday
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13 Jul 2018, 6:07 pm

Had to vote None of the Above as I'll skip 'Write' Pass Jesus and do John 14:12 instead; yes, for F in Real.
Thanks for this intriguing Poll and Question, Fnord; I've enjoyed this Particular Visit to the Wrong
Planet Very much

Seriously, Explore All Your Human Potentials
Now call it John 14:12; or Bruce Lee 10; or even
Nike and Just do it in Victory NoW; Works for me;
100 Percent Faith and Belief and Amazing comes next; yes.

Thank You
Jesus! For
tHat/THiS too...;)


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13 Jul 2018, 6:16 pm

jimmy m wrote:
Spectral Aurtist wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Jesus seemed to be sort of a down-to-earth type of carpenter guy.

He got pissed at the gamblers in the city----so he knocked over the tables (sort of extreme).

Otherwise.....pretty mellow, for the most part.



Actually they weren't gamblers they were merchants busy turning the temple into a street fair by selling offerings and talismans, shouting over each other and making it impossible for anyone observe their faith. Pretty not OK really , wouldn't matter if it was a religion or just some people turning a meditation retreat into an unbearable fiasco of consumerism...really anyplace a bunch of jerks start shouting and turning a place that is supposed to be peaceful and calm into something insane would be about the same.


[Matthew 21: 12-13. And Jesus entered the temple and cast out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those who were selling doves. And He said to them "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER', but you are making it a ROBBERS DEN."]

The Jews made offering such as tithing, sin-offerings, thank-offerings to the temple. Jews traveled from all over the globe to the temple and carried with them the coinage from many countries. But the hierarchy of the Temple determined that only jewish coinage was an acceptable offering and that all other coinage must be converted. So they set up monopolies of moneychangers that pulled a profit. The priest and merchants were using the House of God to make money for themselves. That is why Jesus was upset.

In some ways it is equivalent to the Selling of Indulgences by the Church.

They had turned A House of Prayer into a Robber's Den.


The point is that they were not "gamblers". Don't know where Krafty got that. But merchants gone to far in profiting from religion. Kinda the forerunners of today's televangelist commercializers of religion.



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13 Jul 2018, 7:14 pm

Personally, I believe that Jesus did exist. I also believe that his teachings were true, then and now...

Alcohol & Drugs: "What goes into a man's mouth does not defile him, but what comes out of his mouth, that defiles him" (Matthew 15:11 -- What a man says is what makes him sinful, not what he eats or drinks).

Religious Leaders: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean" (Matthew 23:27 -- We all have heard about preachers, priests, and televangelists who appear so pious in front of their congregations, and who live secret lives of sin and debauchery).

Sanctity of Religious Places: Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves (Matthew 21:12 -- This is the only recorded instance of Jesus committing an act of violence).

Sexual Immorality: "If anyone of you is without sin, let him cast the first stone" (John 8:7 -- Jesus had just saved the life of a woman caught in adultery ... whatever happened to the man she was with?).

Separation of Church & State: "Render unto Caeser what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's" (Matthew 22:21 -- Self-explanatory).

War: "All who draw the sword will die by the sword" (Matthew 25:52 -- Again, self-explanatory).

Wealth: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a wealthy man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 19:29 -- A person who worships wealth already has his reward).

Against these, there can be no reasonable argument.



kraftiekortie
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13 Jul 2018, 8:03 pm

Okay....so the weren't gamblers....but they were money speculators and lenders.



jrjones9933
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13 Jul 2018, 8:21 pm

AshtenS wrote:
Well Jesus did exist. I mean there was an itenerant rabbi by the name of Jesus of Nazareth wandering around first century judea. Even the Talmud mentions him. So that points hard to argue.

This gets mentioned by exclusively Christian "scholars," who tend to always find evidence for what they want, and no other kind. Which Yeshu in the Talmud? There are several people with that name mentioned, but no itinerant rabbis in the purported time frame. They don't let facts like those into their "scholarship."


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Fnord
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13 Jul 2018, 9:39 pm

Look, people, I did not ask for a debate on whether or not Jesus existed -- that decision is for each individual to make for him- or her-self. If you don't believe he existed, that's fine with me, and should be fine with everyone else. The same is true for those who do believe He existed.

So I will thank everyone to back off from any debate over whether or not He existed -- that isn't the point of this thread. If these petty debates continue, I will ask the mods to close this thread.

So, back to the original topic: Would it be better to believe in Jesus, to act like Jesus, both, or neither? Cast your votes and stay on-topic.


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kraftiekortie
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13 Jul 2018, 9:44 pm

I believe he existed LOL

Seriously....I would prefer to "act" like Jesus.



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13 Jul 2018, 9:47 pm

I voted D. I see no point in believing in him and there isn't really much to emulate.



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13 Jul 2018, 9:48 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I believe he existed LOL



That's kind of what I was thinking. "Believing in" is kind of an open ended statement. It can betaken to mean a lot of things.