What's the political climate like in the UK right now?

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I'm sure that immigration was a major factor in many people's decision.

That still doesn't mean that being worried about uncontrolled immigration makes me a racist.

I was careful not to say racist in my post as that is not my view.

I still find it utterly depressing that Farage's famous 'uncontrolled immigration' line was allowed to become such a repeated statement linked to EU Freedom Of Movement.

Unfortunately The_Walrus's post began...

The anti-EU movement was only ever about xenophobia and racism. People don't like foreigners, they don't like working with foreigners, they don't like the idea of foreigners living in distant parts of their country, and they certainly don't want those foreigners to be Turkish.

... and this is the sort of thing that we Leavers have to defend ourselves against at the start of any discussion. I don't see any of myself in this paragraph at all. Sad that this was from a forum moderator.

To go off at a slight tangent - I believe that the original EU charter enshrined free movement of labour, not free movement of people. There's a difference. I think that many Leave voters might have opted for Remain if they thought that incoming people were going to contribute to the society whose institutions they were going to make use of.

The basic question remains - should the support systems of this country be available to everybody?

EU Freedom Of Movement is still only for people who work, always has been. It was, and still is, the UK Govt who decided not to implement EU Freedom Of Movement and instead devise their own immigration policy which allowed for free movement of people without work.

The EU encouraged us for years to implement FOM as it would have reduced our net migration numbers down, forced migrants to take out sickness insurance and generally calmed fears that some people had, but our Govt ignored them time and time again and just ploughed on with their own policy

Like I've said before, I disagree that all peace voters are racist or bigoted. It's not that I'm behind the belief that this is the case. I think the problem with the border control idea is that it was the gateway for racists to hijack the movement. All of a sudden, there's a rush of bigots storming the EU gates. This inflates the number of supporters and has negative connotations; the majority could have been made because of racism. If less than two percent of those that voted leave were in this group of far right nationalist activists, then we would leave the EU due to racist rhetoric. I personally think the number is larger than two percent (I would guess around ten percent or so), so the claim may not be accurate but it's also perfectly valid. That's not to say that bigots couldn't also vote to remain, of course.

10% of those that voted Leave is over 1.7 million people. Do we really have that many 'far right nationalist activists'?

Biscuitman - interesting. I didn't know that!

But you see how this thread has got bogged down in a circular argument about racism and bigotry?

To return to the basic reason that influenced me to vote Leave - should the support systems of this country be available to everybody?

Nowhere near that many voted for the BNP in the 2009 elections.

In ten years, the EU itself may have enough time to be confined to the dustbin of history.

Well, you know the old saying; "show don't tell". Maybe a live re-enactment of the political climate is more enlightening to the OP!

... therefore very few Leavers share the BNP's views.

I'm really tired of having to defend myself against accusations that, because I voted for independence and freedom, I must be a racist

what do you mean support system? you mentioned NHS before but is there anything else you would add to that that was a concern to you?

I don't have a great knowledge on immigration and the NHS to be honest. I do know that under EU FOM rules any immigrant moving to a new country must take out a Comprehensive Sickness Insurance policy (CSI) or face being deported. There was a court case a few years ago where an immigrant claimed the NHS was their CSI, the Home Office won the case against this person and the EU supported the Home Office's stance that the NHS cannot act as CSI and so immigrants must still take out their own private CSI when moving countries.

In March 2017, after the vote, the Conservatives announced that they will no longer refuse entry or deport EU nationals for not having CSI

in terms of 'health tourism' I can't find any trustworthy nationwide figures but for a period in 2017 London hospitals were asked to check ID of patients to see if the system was being abused and of 8894 people only 50 were not eligible and should be paying for the service. It was decided afterwards that this number was so small that it would cost more money to solve than it would save the NHS.

Last edited by Biscuitman on 21 Aug 2018, 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

I mentioned the NHS because I work in it. Otherwise - housing, social security, education. All the services provided by central and local government.

Under EU FOM people can only move here if they are working and therefore paying tax so in general I have no issue with people living and working here who also benefit from the state.

The Conservatives decided not to implement EU FOM though so this does not apply to the UK, but they could implement it any time they want

EU immigrants to the UK who are working and paying tax also cannot claim in work benefits until 4 years after they start work here

Now that's interesting.

Some people on this forum should take note of how it's possible to exchange information with someone of different views without resorting to abuse and slurs which are fuelled only by prejudice.

The original title of this thread was 'What's the political climate like in the UK right now?'. I think that a reasonable answer would be 'toxic'.

1.7 million people isn't that high to me, actually. I do genuinely believe that many people could have either a conscious or subconscious underlying xenophobic rhetoric. Even if they're not bigoted and just solely voted for border control for any reason, that's cause to believe that the leave campaign was driven by a dislike for anybody outside the border. It's questionable to me. Though if 1.7 million people is 10%, that would mean that about 400,000 people would be 2%. That isn't an underestimation of the figures, in my opinion. The problem is bigger than that.

The problem with avoiding or segueing around issues regarding bigotry is that we then actively accept it's not a problem. I believe we have a big problem here in the U.K. It's not good, and doesn't reflect well on anyone.

The support systems for this country should be available to everybody, because most of them are basic human rights.

I'm not sure that somebody with a subconscious bias against foreigners could be described as a 'far right nationalist activist'. [Yet again I feel that I have to point out that saying this does NOT mean that I sympathise with their views in any way at all]
Activists are those idiots who throw paint at mosques and campaign for the compulsory repatriation of everyone who isn't white.

I have no sympathy whatsoever with bigotry. However, the knee-jerk accusations of racism that are made as soon as someone expresses an opinion that someone else doesn't like belittle the issue rather than highlighting it.

I support a particular policy. Without even being asked why I support this, I am a xenophobe, a racist, I don't like foreigners, I don't like working with foreigners, and I don't want foreigners living in this country [especially if they're Turks].

I know that all this is b*llocks. My natural inclination now is to dismiss such slurs if made against anybody else unless I have first-hand experience of their bigotry. So maybe I think racism is less of a problem than it really is.

This is polarisation. In Trump's US, if you don't support his anti-immigrant measures then you're supporting terrorism. Here, if you want to leave the EU then you're a racist.

The idea of the UK support services being available to everyone is great in theory [and probably makes people feel good!] but unworkable in practice.
One tiny example - the NHS ophthalmology service is geared to perform around 400,000 cataract operations a year. Throughout the EU there are probably fifty million people who need such surgery but who can't get it.
In the real world, are we going to offer treatment to an almost-blind Romanian and deny it to a not-quite-so-blind Mancunian? [I suppose I shall now be asked what I have against Romanians!]