What's the political climate like in the UK right now?

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Mountain Goat
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08 Sep 2019, 5:27 am

Please be aware that this is my take on this. I may not always be 100% correct. But it is from my understanding that I write.

The big issue here is a general election result could mean years and years of delay, and this is why many MP's tried to force it through. And if we get another party in (Which is likely, and likely to be Labour), we are likely to head straight back fully into the EU against the will of the majority of the people who origionally voted for Brexit.
We should not focus on deals as a priority but on leaving the EU because that is what the majority of the people voted for. If we don't get it, then we can give up on democracy now. It is not sustainable. We need a dictatorship (Which ironically is what the EU is, as the head of the EU is a non elected member position).
Here are some thoughts.

The Magna Carter used to be taught in a school history lesson as a matter of priority prior to the GCSE's coming in because they wanted to drum in the reasons it came in in the first place. One of these reasons was that parts of Britain had been peeviously ruled from many different tribes who didn't even live in these shores and so the rules hardly related to the people living here that for those living under these rules life became difficult. The Magna Carter set out one very important rule which can be called on today and still stands today. Britain has to be governed from within these shores. The EU made a way around this by sending laws to the UK parliament, and the UK parliament had to decide to accept or reject them. The EU is not allowed to impose a law onto the UK people and bypass this chain of command as anyone can then reject such a law as it was not debated and accepted from within these shores.

A second point to note is this. As people living in the UK, we have a democratic system. If those who have been voting in stand against the democratic vote of the people, the people legally have the power and rights to remove those people, be it by force or whatever method is necesary, and then force in their own new parliament system to carry out the will of the people. This has been done in the past where kings have been overthrown because they did not take the people under their rule in regard, as in Britain, a king used to stand before God to govern the land for the benefit of the people. It is the fundamental reason wht those who started democracy many years ago were able to overthrow the king, as the king had lost touch with the people, and the result was the setting up of parliament in the first place.

When people voted not to be part of the EU (The vote was never to leave the EU as officially the public has never collectively had a vote which had a result to join the EU so Labour took us in illegally in the first place (So in effect any UK citizen can say "No" to any EU imposed laws if it can be proved they came from the EU in the first place). Brexit was origionally planned to be an excuse to legally take us into the EU as legally, we could not go fully in until the British people voted that way. When the British peoples vote said "No" there was a huge dilemma as the MP's plan backfired.

The whole political system should have been reformed after the Brexit vote and here is why.

1. We had all the major parties split into EU or Brexiteer voters. Very few parties had a definate pro or anti EU policy. So the Conservitives and Labour and several other parties needed to stand down, reform and then stand back up to the challenge... There should then have been a general election there and then but only for the Brexit inclined parties and here is why. Brexit has already been voted on (An all party election should then take place AFTER we leave the EU and NOT before as to do this before means democracy has been bypassed. Yes, at a later date another vote can be allowed to see if the public thinks differently. Of course. That is what democracy is all about. But NOT before the results of the last vote has been carried out. This maybe painful for some, but it is a democratic principle. Errode this and you have a dictatorship).
2. We ended up with a democratic mess. We had MP's who stood for their areas where the individual MP's vote were based on their personal feelings of being pro or anti EU, but the people they stood for in their own areas often had a majority which went the opposite way. (It is why there should have been a total reformingnof all political parties straight after the Brexit vote where most parties should have been split into new parties with new constitutions so that this current mess could have been avoided).
3. Deal or no deal. Never did the British public vote for a deal or a no deal situation. They voted for Brexit. Trade continues be there a eeal or no deal. If youu as an individual wanted to but a BMW car, you could go to Germany and buy one and bringnit back to the UK, be there a deal or no deal. You could even get them to send it here. No laws broken be it deal or no deal.
The deals. What are they? Simple. If there was no deal, big businesses would no longer have access to grants which they get from the UK taxpayers... These grants were set up so big businesses who had the extra expense to paynout shareholdres, could compete with the small self employed people doing the same thing. The problem with this is the big buisnesses, due to these grants could be earning a few thousand percent profit, and due to all the shareholdres they need to pay, they maybe struggling. The small sole trader businesses were typically on 25 to 50% profits. However, due to the grants, many, many small businesses who didn't qualify ended up collapsing.
VAT used to be a way to even out pricss on those big businesses who bought in bulk and had a massive advantage. VAT is not actually a bill or an expense on a business as VAT isn't paid for by the business. VAT is simply collecting a tax directly from the customer and passing it to the government. VAT is not taxing a business whatsoever. Businesses can claim portions of this tax for investing in their own business... NOT to increase profits in a direct way.
If we leave without a deal who suffers? Shareholders! Businesses who are not on stock markets carry on regardless. Limited companies may be hit hard, and the stock market is likely to suffer.
The UK's number one profitable industry is the stock market. This is why, to MP's, a deal is a must. As they, and many other people such as the news industries etc, will be ard hit if we have a no deal Brexit... Hence the TV news programms are doing all they can to manipulate the public into thinking a deal is neccessary for the country. The TV news companies are incredibly biassed for their own survival. Even the MP's themselves may have invested their hard earned money into shares.
The big issue is that the stock market is so fragile anyway, that it could come crashing down regardless of deal or no deal as the whole set up is inclined to implode. If one can see parpttersn of how structures work you wil see this, and understand why recessios come and go in ever increasing waves until finally total disaster comes. It is like a car and trailor or caravan snaking out of control if an unskilled owner has loaded up the caravan or trailer incorrectly. First it starts to wobble, then a little more, and more and if no intelligent action is impliamented at the right moment... Disaster!


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JohnPowell
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08 Sep 2019, 5:39 am

Biscuitman wrote:
climber9 wrote:
Difficult to see how that would work. The remainer MP’s who dominate parliament are never going to approve any deal on principle


Apart from the ones who repeatedly voted for us to leave via the WA?


:roll: Yawn.

The house voted to trigger Article 50 so had already agreed to leave on the 29th of March with or without a deal. That was made clear during the referendum campaign too, so stop repeating lies and propaganda. The May treaty was voted down because it didn't honour the referendum or the Conservative manifesto.


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08 Sep 2019, 5:44 am

JohnPowell wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
climber9 wrote:
Difficult to see how that would work. The remainer MP’s who dominate parliament are never going to approve any deal on principle


Apart from the ones who repeatedly voted for us to leave via the WA?


:roll: Yawn.


You not liking it doesn't mean others didn't have to not like it.

It was a response to Climber9 who said remain MP's would not agree to 'any deal', when in fact they already had, some of them 3 times. no matter how much you claim it meant we were not leaving, it's a fact that the WA meant we were



climber9
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08 Sep 2019, 9:52 am

I’m sure that there is a small number of democracy-respecting Remain MP’s who voted for the WA. But the Remain camp is dominated by dyed-in-the-wool Europhiles who will never vote for any agreement which takes us out of the EU.

Unfortunately, I don’t think that a General Election is likely to help. GE’s are fought on a range of issues, of which Brexit is only one. Domestic issues are just that – domestic. How should we, as a country, deal with issues X, Y and Z? Brexit is a fundamentally different type of issue. It is about whether the idea of ‘as a country’ continues to have any real meaning, or whether we become part of a greater organisation, a ‘United States of Europe’.

A further problem with a GE is, of course, our weird electoral system. In 2014 UKIP got 12.6% of the popular vote and got one MP. The SNP got 8.6% of the vote and 56 MP’s. The system penalises those whose support is spread out across the country. The Brexit Party is likely to come second or third in almost every constituency yet be virtually unrepresented in parliament.



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08 Sep 2019, 9:59 am

climber9 wrote:
I’m sure that there is a small number of democracy-respecting Remain MP’s who voted for the WA. But the Remain camp is dominated by dyed-in-the-wool Europhiles who will never vote for any agreement which takes us out of the EU


So many remain voting MP's voted for MV3 that it only required the ERG to back it and it would have gone through. Some of the arch leavers of that group voted against their govt though and so here we now are.



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08 Sep 2019, 11:06 am

Biscuitman wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
climber9 wrote:
Difficult to see how that would work. The remainer MP’s who dominate parliament are never going to approve any deal on principle


Apart from the ones who repeatedly voted for us to leave via the WA?


:roll: Yawn.


You not liking it doesn't mean others didn't have to not like it.

It was a response to Climber9 who said remain MP's would not agree to 'any deal', when in fact they already had, some of them 3 times. no matter how much you claim it meant we were not leaving, it's a fact that the WA meant we were


It wasn't a deal, it was just a different version of staying in the EU. Mine aren't claims, they are facts. Only in name, so again stop repeating lies and propaganda.


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08 Sep 2019, 11:09 am

Biscuitman wrote:
climber9 wrote:
I’m sure that there is a small number of democracy-respecting Remain MP’s who voted for the WA. But the Remain camp is dominated by dyed-in-the-wool Europhiles who will never vote for any agreement which takes us out of the EU


So many remain voting MP's voted for MV3 that it only required the ERG to back it and it would have gone through. Some of the arch leavers of that group voted against their govt though and so here we now are.


Of course 'remain' MP's voted for it. Any MP who voted for it is a traitor to their country. And that includes Rees Mogg and Johnson.


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climber9
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09 Sep 2019, 1:54 am

Without the name calling…

1. Boris Johnson is trying to implement the will of the people, as defined by the largest democratic vote in UK history.
2. A majority of MP’s oppose him, despite having stood for election on a manifesto which promised to respect the referendum result.
3. Those same MP’s refuse to submit to an election at which voters could endorse or reject their actions.

It is not unusual for the odd MP to behave in an undemocratic manner. What we now have is a parliament which is openly frustrating the will of the people. Isn’t this the sort of situation which drives people into the arms of extremist parties, believing that the mainstream parties refuse to represent them?



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09 Sep 2019, 2:12 am

climber9 wrote:
Without the name calling…

1. Boris Johnson is trying to implement the will of the people, as defined by the largest democratic vote in UK history.
2. A majority of MP’s oppose him, despite having stood for election on a manifesto which promised to respect the referendum result.
3. Those same MP’s refuse to submit to an election at which voters could endorse or reject their actions.


1. it wasn't the largest democratic vote in UK history, that is just Conservative Party propaganda. Take a look at the 1992 GE for instance.

can you define what you consider to be the 'will of the people' around no deal?.

2. 54% of voters in the 2017 GE voted for parties which ruled out leaving the EU with no deal. Seems a pretty good barometer of what the will of the people is around leaving with a no deal brexit anyway. Feels fairly democratic for MP's to stick to that.

3. MP's already did that once and it resolved nothing, if anything it just made the situation more complicated. The Fixed Term Parliament Act means that Parliament decides when a GE happens and not the PM. It is not designed to help a PM get out of a whole that he has dug. If the majority of MP's feel they don't want a GE then so be it, that is democracy.



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09 Sep 2019, 6:28 am

Prorogation of Parliament confirmed as beginning tonight. It does mean that unless a vote for a GE is passed later today then the earliest a GE could happen is late November

stakes upped another notch :D



climber9
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09 Sep 2019, 8:26 am

There are several ways of defining the size of a demographic vote. More people (17,410,742) voted to leave the EU than have ever voted for any other single electoral option, so it can hardly be called ‘propaganda’.
If you use the definition of ‘total votes cast’ then it’s true that the 1992 GE was fractionally bigger [33,614,074 as against 33,551,983 in the referendum].

All that can be said about the will of the people is that we should leave the EU. It’s the job of parliament to make that happen. But many MP’s consider it their job to prevent it from happening at all, under any circumstances. The leaders of the Green Party and the SDP have both said that they would ignore a second Leave vote, should a second referendum happen.

We seem to be redefining democracy as what parliament wants, rather than what the people want.



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09 Sep 2019, 8:47 am

climber9 wrote:
All that can be said about the will of the people is that we should leave the EU


I know it's inconvenient, but do you not see the majority of people voting in the 2017GE for parties who ruled out no deal as people expressing any kind of will?



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09 Sep 2019, 11:14 am

Biscuitman wrote:
climber9 wrote:
Without the name calling…

1. Boris Johnson is trying to implement the will of the people, as defined by the largest democratic vote in UK history.
2. A majority of MP’s oppose him, despite having stood for election on a manifesto which promised to respect the referendum result.
3. Those same MP’s refuse to submit to an election at which voters could endorse or reject their actions.


1. it wasn't the largest democratic vote in UK history, that is just Conservative Party propaganda. Take a look at the 1992 GE for instance.

can you define what you consider to be the 'will of the people' around no deal?.

2. 54% of voters in the 2017 GE voted for parties which ruled out leaving the EU with no deal. Seems a pretty good barometer of what the will of the people is around leaving with a no deal brexit anyway. Feels fairly democratic for MP's to stick to that.

3. MP's already did that once and it resolved nothing, if anything it just made the situation more complicated. The Fixed Term Parliament Act means that Parliament decides when a GE happens and not the PM. It is not designed to help a PM get out of a whole that he has dug. If the majority of MP's feel they don't want a GE then so be it, that is democracy.


Interesting you're repeating propaganda slogans from Femi who seems to be funded by dodgy people.

Around 85% voted for parties that said they would respect the result of the referendum and leave the Single Market and the Customs union. The only way to do that is leaving without a deal. So that debunks that tripe. MP's voted to trigger Article 50 so that debunks the rest of the tripe.


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JohnPowell
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09 Sep 2019, 11:52 am

Luckily we have them on video.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... highlights


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Biscuitman
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10 Sep 2019, 1:54 am

JohnPowell wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
climber9 wrote:
Without the name calling…

1. Boris Johnson is trying to implement the will of the people, as defined by the largest democratic vote in UK history.
2. A majority of MP’s oppose him, despite having stood for election on a manifesto which promised to respect the referendum result.
3. Those same MP’s refuse to submit to an election at which voters could endorse or reject their actions.


1. it wasn't the largest democratic vote in UK history, that is just Conservative Party propaganda. Take a look at the 1992 GE for instance.

can you define what you consider to be the 'will of the people' around no deal?.

2. 54% of voters in the 2017 GE voted for parties which ruled out leaving the EU with no deal. Seems a pretty good barometer of what the will of the people is around leaving with a no deal brexit anyway. Feels fairly democratic for MP's to stick to that.

3. MP's already did that once and it resolved nothing, if anything it just made the situation more complicated. The Fixed Term Parliament Act means that Parliament decides when a GE happens and not the PM. It is not designed to help a PM get out of a whole that he has dug. If the majority of MP's feel they don't want a GE then so be it, that is democracy.


Interesting you're repeating propaganda slogans from Femi who seems to be funded by dodgy people.

Around 85% voted for parties that said they would respect the result of the referendum and leave the Single Market and the Customs union. The only way to do that is leaving without a deal. So that debunks that tripe. MP's voted to trigger Article 50 so that debunks the rest of the tripe.


what on earth is Femi?

Triggering A50 didn't determine the final destination, there are many options open to us. The leave campaign famously promised the nation 'the exact same benefits as we already had' and Vote Leave were so adamant that we would not have a no deal situation that they put in writing that they would not even trigger A50 until they had a deal in place. The public were then asked what type of brexit they wanted by way of a GE and the majority of voters said no to no deal.

Sounds like the people expressing some kind of will to me