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Twilightprincess
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30 Dec 2019, 5:43 pm

I’m not really sure where to put this. It’s not exactly a parenting question. I suppose I’m thinking along philosophical/religious lines, so I’m putting it here although it’s sort of a rant, too.

As I was growing up, people in my family and general circle thought child abuse (physical) was funny. They’d mention instances of obvious abuse and laugh about it which has always pissed me off. As a small child, I knew it was wrong.

I got into a fight with my mom about it over the weekend. I’ve been thinking of a particular family, recently, that used to be really bad this way. What made it worse was that the patriarch of the family was an important elder in my Kingdom Hall and people thought it was right to follow his example.

Anyway, when the wife would drive the kids around, she’d hit them with a rubber hose when they’d misbehave in the back seat (hitting both kids whether they were both responsible or not).

My family thought this was hysterical. It’d hurt to get hit with a rubber hose...

Then when I was 16-17, I saw another relative of this family spanking her 12 month hold HARD in the bathroom. What could a 12 month old do to warrant such treatment? It made me sick to my stomach, and I lost all respect for that woman although she was just following her husband’s orders. When that kid was under 2, he would sit perfectly still and quiet for 2 hour long services. Everyone thought it was wonderful. :roll: As he grew up, he was frequently beat with a belt by the males in his family for minor infractions.

Anyway, 2 year olds should be curiously exploring their environment and not devoid of all spirit due to abuse. He was disfellowshipped at 18 and has been open about struggling with his difficult upbringing. His sister recently left, too. She struggles with anxiety and depression.

My family would also laugh about the way they harshly disciplined us. I don’t get why that is funny. If I beat my kid with a belt (I never have), I certainly wouldn’t laugh about it.

My grandmother thinks it’s funny that another family would throw their kids in to the wall when they misbehaved (another upstanding elder family).

As law enforcement began cracking down more on overly harsh discipline, family and my church would complain that “You can’t discipline your kids anymore. The next generation is going to be completely wild and out of control.”



uncommondenominator
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30 Dec 2019, 6:13 pm

Generally, when the previous generation says that the younger generation will be "out of control" what they're REALLY worried about is that the next generation will be out of THEIR control, and won't do as they're told. "Completely wild" is usually code for "doing things I don't approve of", rather than actually meaning anything bad.

They won't see it as abuse, cos to them, it's just enforcement of their right to rule. Those who benefit from inequality seldom see it as inequality. Those who are in charge seldom relinquish power willingly.

Laughing about it is the same sort of cover up behavior used by bigots in general. Treat it like a joke so it doesn't get taken seriously. That way if someone complains they can gaslight them by saying they're taking things too seriously. Minimize it so you can normalize it. To acknowledge it as abuse is to acknowledge it's wrongness, necessitating a discontinuation of the behavior in the face of moral judgement. Basically, it means giving up control.

A lot of it likely goes back to "honor thy parents" and "spare the rod, spoil the child" crap. Really it's "might makes right" pretending to be righteous morality.



Borromeo
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30 Dec 2019, 6:26 pm

Twilightprincess, once again, you're right--this mess is fairly common.

Thank you for getting in a fight with your mother about this. I don't know her point of view, but even the people who think corporal punishment is necessary should agree with you that laughing about it changes the equation from discipline to sadism. People hurting people is not something funny--you are 100% right and if you don't mind I support your rant wholeheartedly.

You mentioned a Kingdom Hall. Is this the Jehovah's Witnesses we're talking about here? With your joking about Goddess Worship I can only assume that you no longer partake of the J.W.s so there is a subreddit you might like called r/exjw that is pretty full of the same things you're talking about. If it would make you tense or upset to read, I suggest not reading it, but seriously, lots of people have had abusive stuff happen in that culture for whatever reason. (Pretty ignorant about the J.W. religion over on my end.)

Uncommondenominator:

You really do tell it like it is. I like that...you have a way with words as well.


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Twilightprincess
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30 Dec 2019, 6:32 pm

Borromeo wrote:
Twilightprincess, once again, you're right--this mess is fairly common.

Thank you for getting in a fight with your mother about this. I don't know her point of view, but even the people who think corporal punishment is necessary should agree with you that laughing about it changes the equation from discipline to sadism. People hurting people is not something funny--you are 100% right and if you don't mind I support your rant wholeheartedly.

You mentioned a Kingdom Hall. Is this the Jehovah's Witnesses we're talking about here? With your joking about Goddess Worship I can only assume that you no longer partake of the J.W.s so there is a subreddit you might like called r/exjw that is pretty full of the same things you're talking about. If it would make you tense or upset to read, I suggest not reading it, but seriously, lots of people have had abusive stuff happen in that culture for whatever reason. (Pretty ignorant about the J.W. religion over on my end.)

Uncommondenominator:

You really do tell it like it is. I like that...you have a way with words as well.


Yeah, I’ve spent lots of time on the exJW subreddit. It’s bizarre how alike we all are and how we’ve all had such similar experiences. It’s sort of like family.

I’m an atheist. The Goddess Cult stuff is just a silly joke, unless cyberdad wants to give me $50,000. Then it’s absolutely legit. :wink:



Twilightprincess
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30 Dec 2019, 6:36 pm

uncommondenominator wrote:
Generally, when the previous generation says that the younger generation will be "out of control" what they're REALLY worried about is that the next generation will be out of THEIR control, and won't do as they're told. "Completely wild" is usually code for "doing things I don't approve of", rather than actually meaning anything bad.

They won't see it as abuse, cos to them, it's just enforcement of their right to rule. Those who benefit from inequality seldom see it as inequality. Those who are in charge seldom relinquish power willingly.

Laughing about it is the same sort of cover up behavior used by bigots in general. Treat it like a joke so it doesn't get taken seriously. That way if someone complains they can gaslight them by saying they're taking things too seriously. Minimize it so you can normalize it. To acknowledge it as abuse is to acknowledge it's wrongness, necessitating a discontinuation of the behavior in the face of moral judgement. Basically, it means giving up control.

A lot of it likely goes back to "honor thy parents" and "spare the rod, spoil the child" crap. Really it's "might makes right" pretending to be righteous morality.


There was definitely a lot of “spare the rod” type of talk.

It was strange seeing one generation after the next engage in the same abusive behavior. I felt like I was in some sort of Twilight Zone episode in that I was the only one who could see that it was wrong. To be fair, others probably did, too, but just didn’t say anything. My brother didn’t really think about it.

It certainly didn’t help when “upstanding” members of the community set the tone.



uncommondenominator
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30 Dec 2019, 6:55 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
Generally, when the previous generation says that the younger generation will be "out of control" what they're REALLY worried about is that the next generation will be out of THEIR control, and won't do as they're told. "Completely wild" is usually code for "doing things I don't approve of", rather than actually meaning anything bad.

They won't see it as abuse, cos to them, it's just enforcement of their right to rule. Those who benefit from inequality seldom see it as inequality. Those who are in charge seldom relinquish power willingly.

Laughing about it is the same sort of cover up behavior used by bigots in general. Treat it like a joke so it doesn't get taken seriously. That way if someone complains they can gaslight them by saying they're taking things too seriously. Minimize it so you can normalize it. To acknowledge it as abuse is to acknowledge it's wrongness, necessitating a discontinuation of the behavior in the face of moral judgement. Basically, it means giving up control.

A lot of it likely goes back to "honor thy parents" and "spare the rod, spoil the child" crap. Really it's "might makes right" pretending to be righteous morality.


There was definitely a lot of “spare the rod” type of talk.

It was strange seeing one generation after the next engage in the same abusive behavior. I felt like I was in some sort of Twilight Zone episode in that I was the only one who could see that it was wrong. To be fair, others probably did, too, but just didn’t say anything. My brother didn’t really think about it.

It certainly didn’t help when “upstanding” members of the community set the tone.


When you're raised to believe a certain idea is normal, one tends to engage in that same behavior. If one's parents set the tone that parents have every right to grind their kids under their boot-heel, they're more likely to do the same to their kids as well, cos that's what they were taught. It's the essence of the phrase "what comes around, goes around". After a few generations, it gets to a point where "that's just how it's always been", and to question it is to go against the ever-so-important "family tradition". It never enters their mind that, maybe it's a really crappy "tradition".

People will often say things like "my parents beat me as a kid and I turned out ok!" - but really, they're ready and willing to beat their own kid before the kid even did anything bad, so maybe you're not THAT "ok". I don't know that imagining situations under which you'd happily beat your own kid is "ok". As Borromeo said, it's the difference between discipline and sadism.

@ Borromeo, Thank you. I've spent many years (decades) developing my ability to write and communicate. I appreciate the compliment :D



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30 Dec 2019, 6:58 pm

I think that people are so ready to see abuse continue is that they want to see what they did or experienced be validated. I imagine the real fear of if being prevented from being done to the next generation is that it might not be needed, then it just meant that their parents hurt them for no reason, and what they might have done makes them a bit of a monster. Won't say that it is all consciously what they think, most probably think the next generation will be punks is their concern.

As for laughing at abuse, my thought is that it can be a mix of happy it is not me, and an interest in how that will effect behavior. Pulling from a memory of a child who's actions changed, or even their own, like how much a little smack could have, so something big should have a big impact. It is a misunderstanding on the effects and maybe even trauma.

In worst case scenarios, it is a power thing, the feeling of power over another. Like that one scientific study where they randomly split a group of people into guards and prisoners, and it did not take long for the guards to start to abuse to prisoners and gain joy in doing so.


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shortfatbalduglyman
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30 Dec 2019, 7:45 pm

Child protective services sometimes makes it worse

However if you feel that way, you should call CPS



Twilightprincess
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30 Dec 2019, 9:09 pm

shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
Child protective services sometimes makes it worse

However if you feel that way, you should call CPS


It’s too long ago now. They are grownup.

I’ve been out for years, so I’m not sure what’s currently going on with kids.

I would call CPS in a heartbeat on anyone now, though.

I’m technically a mandated reporter, but I’d call even if I wasn’t.



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30 Dec 2019, 11:29 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
Child protective services sometimes makes it worse

However if you feel that way, you should call CPS


It’s too long ago now. They are grownup.

I’ve been out for years, so I’m not sure what’s currently going on with kids.

I would call CPS in a heartbeat on anyone now, though.

I’m technically a mandated reporter, but I’d call even if I wasn’t.


Me thinks statute of limitations on child abuse needs ! to be raised to 95 yrs
For more egregious situations as such as ongoing during developmental years


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Twilightprincess
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31 Dec 2019, 12:20 am

Jakki wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
Child protective services sometimes makes it worse

However if you feel that way, you should call CPS


It’s too long ago now. They are grownup.

I’ve been out for years, so I’m not sure what’s currently going on with kids.

I would call CPS in a heartbeat on anyone now, though.

I’m technically a mandated reporter, but I’d call even if I wasn’t.


Me thinks statute of limitations on child abuse needs ! to be raised to 95 yrs
For more egregious situations as such as ongoing during developmental years


I know people who are trying to increase the statute of limitations in my state, but I can’t talk too much about that story right now.

It’s probably going to create a fair amount of drama.



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31 Dec 2019, 12:48 am

There's a fine line between abuse and appropriate physical discipline. I agree that there's nothing funny about corporal punishment. I think hitting a child with a belt or a hose is a bit much. But as far as having the right to do so, well, if it doesn't leave a bruise or break the skin, it's difficult to justify that as abuse.

Parents often do take physical punishment to excess. Even if you can't technically qualify it as abuse, it is abuse of a method. Kids will eventually become immune to it and it loses its effectiveness. If parents find it funny, they're doing it wrong. There's nothing funny about a child who misbehaves to the level that they require correction.



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31 Dec 2019, 4:10 am

Is it legal in the USA to beat kids with belts? Or does it debend on state? Here it'd be a crime to even threaten to hit your kid with a belt (or anything else.)



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31 Dec 2019, 6:35 am

Hitting with belts would be considered assault in many states these days.

People are arrested for this in NY City.



Twilightprincess
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31 Dec 2019, 9:01 am

AngelRho wrote:
There's a fine line between abuse and appropriate physical discipline. I agree that there's nothing funny about corporal punishment. I think hitting a child with a belt or a hose is a bit much. But as far as having the right to do so, well, if it doesn't leave a bruise or break the skin, it's difficult to justify that as abuse.

Parents often do take physical punishment to excess. Even if you can't technically qualify it as abuse, it is abuse of a method. Kids will eventually become immune to it and it loses its effectiveness. If parents find it funny, they're doing it wrong. There's nothing funny about a child who misbehaves to the level that they require correction.


I disapprove of all corporal punishment. There’s no “fine line” here.

It’s bullying, abusive behavior that signifies lazy parenting (or worse).

If you’re going to get beat with a belt, there’s probably going to be welts involved, even if just very temporary ones.

Smacking kids around with your hand causes red skin.

I’d like to see stricter laws in place. We make it too easy to abuse kids in this country.

There are plenty of other methods of discipline that decent, intelligent parents know of and implement.



Twilightprincess
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31 Dec 2019, 9:04 am

Fireblossom wrote:
Is it legal in the USA to beat kids with belts? Or does it debend on state? Here it'd be a crime to even threaten to hit your kid with a belt (or anything else.)


Good!

Are you allowed to smack kids where you live?

I think that’s wrong, too.