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techstepgenr8tion
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13 Sep 2018, 10:48 am

Fnord wrote:
I am saying that a set of standardized guidelines for discussing the supernatural may be in order, so as to prevent the discussion from veering off from the supernatural into the totally weird.

If the supernatural is an incoherent concept then what we're ultimately trying to untangle true or false claims about the natural (objective and subjective included) as well as sort out more accurate or less accurate interpretations of the sorts of anomalous experiences that make up the sorts of edge cases we'd want to examine. That an experience is subjective or neurological, for example, might not be all there is to be said about it and may not exhaust the limits of its implications. It's also useful, if people are going to entertain ideas like panpsychism, to hash out what constitutes the more persuasive edge of circumstantial evidence for that and what doesn't.

The whole point here though is to find ways to weed out sloppy thinking and have guidelines on how to kill that before it starts. That said it's really awesome, and makes everything easier, when enough science has been done on every detail of a sphere of conversation to make a really solid case for its grounding. Where that's not comprehensively available adult sophistication and maturity have to suffice.


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13 Sep 2018, 10:58 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
If the supernatural is an incoherent concept then what we're ultimately trying to untangle true or false claims about the natural (objective and subjective included) as well as sort out more accurate or less accurate interpretations of the sorts of anomalous experiences that make up the sorts of edge cases we'd want to examine. That an experience is subjective or neurological, for example, might not be all there is to be said about it and may not exhaust the limits of its implications. It's also useful, if people are going to entertain ideas like panpsychism, to hash out what constitutes the more persuasive edge of circumstantial evidence for that and what doesn't.
Agreed.

What defines a true or false claim? How does this differ from valid and invalid claims?

What determines the accuracy of interpretations? What method of interpretation is to be used?

What defines circumstantial evidence? Is circumstantial evidence enough to prove a claim?


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13 Sep 2018, 11:18 am

Fnord wrote:
What defines a true or false claim? How does this differ from valid and invalid claims?

A true or false claim is something that can be measured against known facts in such a way where it isn't on a gradation of value, and I'd put that in a very stringent and small box. A claim's validity or invalidity has to do with its scope and how much actual leverage it attempts to apply to reality - for example 'I thought I saw a ghost' is a valid claim, 'I saw a ghost' is less likely to be a valid claim and would be highly dubious until you actually had a model of what constitutes 'ghost' that isn't just a supernatural wasteland label for 'something I didn't understand'.

Fnord wrote:
What determines the accuracy of interpretations? What method of interpretation is to be used?

Wherever external consistency is getting challenged, internal consistency, and consistency with external contingencies wherever it's possible for the internal components to make contact with external ones. If you can actually have such good luck that you not only have external consistencies chasing into subjective realms and then leading back out again and the whole thing seems solid - that might actually be grounds for funding a scientific experiment.

Fnord wrote:
What defines circumstantial evidence? Is circumstantial evidence enough to prove a claim?

It's not solid but it's not completely squishy either. It's something you can establish hypotheses on or sometimes you can use it to triage certain things that it excludes. If I know for example that Mark is 5' 8" and that Jeff is taller than Mark I don't know Mark's exact height but I can say with comfortable certainty that Mark isn't 5' 6".


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13 Sep 2018, 11:24 am

So...

True/False is a binary value -- it's either one or the other, with nothing in-between (I can go along with that).

A high degree of consistency determines the accuracy of the interpretation (I think that the more correct term is "implies", not "determines").

Circumstantial evidence fills the gap between True and False (... maybe ...).

Am I following you so far?


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13 Sep 2018, 11:26 am

Regarding your references to so-called «heaven» ...

What needs to be understood here is that these are terms that will have different meanings and interpretations for different people based on their cumulative knowledge/experiences/biases/etc. This I know very well from having studied and researched... well... a crap-ton of subjects (even in-depth). The «Legalese» system being something of a parallel example that can easily demonstrate my point to a layperson...

Basically, even lawyers and judges often cannot agree with each other as to the correct or proper definition of some word, and so they go back to this «library» worth of written archives to find any «precedent» that might back up one position or another (this is the same process used amongst so-called Christian so-called denominations [more like cults and sects as with any other politicized institution] when they «quote» contradicting so-called bible-verses).

Anyway, the «jurisdiction» and/or definition-sets and/or contexts/language/dialect/jargon/etc., that now «plague» so-called society renders use of such words arbitrary unless well-defined in a contractual-manner (full of Legalese-sounding crap and all). See, what I mean here is that, any «controversial» subject is prone to being rife with euphemisms, such that I may have sailed out to sea in uncharted waters on a past day. Whilst sailing, I could have found a deserted island, decided to name it «Heaven», even write a book about «How to get to Heaven» or similar and it ends up simply being directions about returning to that particular co-ordinate. This becomes problematic when institutionalised (already happened with Israel with that «belief» about some physical-place on earth being the so-called Holy Promised Land... because some arrogant and rather delusional souls decided that it was a good idea to name a physical land-mass on earth after their religious-ambitions for the sake of their OWN wealth, power, and prestige, even though in the true context of ancient-language, Israel was not referring to a physical land-mass on earth).

Whilst I am myself clearly not a so-called materialist (who are always so-called atheist), I do know the history and back-ground behind why there has been historic precedent behind their «crusade» to discredit any and all «subjective» beliefs/experiences as being due to so-called super-natural authority (even though they seem to ironically not exert that same effort against the «super-natural authority» commonly called government/state), for religion (which governments also are) has had a history, according to various record-books of mass-murder, killings, genocide, etc (i.e.: crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, holocausts, witch-hunts, etc.; although for some reason they often fail to mention that even «atheist» government-regimes have also been known in the history books to be responsible for such mass-murders and genocide, for example, Stalin's former Soviet forced atheism where so-called practicing Christians were executed en-masse).

Also just going to throw in the tidbit that, from what I observe, I cannot honestly believe that there is any such thing as a true so-called «Atheist» in existence, for even so-called atheists revere so-called «government» as what can only be described by an outside-observer like myself as being their so-called God (they just use different euphemisms like «government» and «state» or «authority» or «ORDERS/COMMANDS» [Nazi-Germans, anyone ?] or so-called «Law» or «nation» to replace what was traditionally called «deity» or «god/Gods» or their written commandments/decrees/etc). All these modern-day «gods» (false idols) have their own «narratives» or «fairy tale stories» behind their existence, how they were born, etc.

All in all, I cannot help but to see the «unquestioning following» of ANY of these modern-day so-called «authorities» as a truly «super-natural» phenomenon, that «phenomenon» essentially being the «mind-control» over followers.


aghogday wrote:
-snip-


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13 Sep 2018, 11:28 am

@techstepgenr8tion: I think we just lost any relevancy to our discussion.


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13 Sep 2018, 11:32 am

Fnord wrote:
So...

True/False is a binary value -- it's either one or the other, with nothing in-between (I can go along with that).

I'd also add, speaking qualitatively, really solid true/false proclamations are *really* hard won. They're also the kinds of victories where, if they don't end up nested right in the thick of how we do culture, they can get lost in the flotsam and jetsam of human ideas across generations. Sometimes I worry that a lot of human knowledge has to be rediscovered as it tends to periodically get carried right out the door on a huge raft of BS.

Fnord wrote:
A high degree of consistency determines the accuracy of the interpretation (I think that the more correct term is "implies", not "determines").

I could go with implies on that. Otherwise, if it's a 'which claim is most accurate' then central coherence might help one select which claim to go with.

Fnord wrote:
Circumstantial evidence fills the gap between True and False (... maybe ...).

If we're talking about anomalous situations of any type really, not just paranormal, they're the data points that would imply that there's any new space to examine and either eventually keep or discard. Past that we're in the territory of unknown unknowns, with which nothing new can be conceived.


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13 Sep 2018, 11:36 am

Then would the following conclusion template make sense to you?

"With regard to claim ______, we can say with high/moderate/low degree of confidence that the available evidence implies that the claim may be valid/invalid and worth/not worth further study."


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13 Sep 2018, 11:39 am

This is already used in statistical meta-analysis with what are called confidence-intervals.

Out of all of the areas of mathematical-crunching upon which to spend such energies, this seems to be used most of all in the «sports» industry, and I just cannot fathom why so many people have such an obsession over sports-statistics.

Fnord wrote:
Then would the following conclusion template make sense to you?

"With regard to claim ______, we can say with high/moderate/low degree of confidence that the available evidence implies that the claim may be valid/invalid and worth/not worth further study."


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13 Sep 2018, 11:46 am

Fnord wrote:
Then would the following conclusion template make sense to you?

"With regard to claim ______, we can say with high/moderate/low degree of confidence that the available evidence implies that the claim may be valid/invalid and worth/not worth further study."


That would depend on everything that came before that sentence. Garbage in / garbage out.


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13 Sep 2018, 11:56 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
aghogday wrote:
So, in other Words, for Practical Intents and Purposes our Minds are 'Super Natural' for we cannot Discretely Measure our
Minds Reliably in Repeated Measure for the Very Nature of Consciousness itself is an Overall Mystery to Science Still; A Vast Domain for Endless Exploration the Mind is and a Vast Potential the Mind is that Group Think that 'Artificially' Adheres to rules and instruction and guidelines of Past Think stagnates in the Dead Seas of the Mind and Body of
Past as the Potentials of the Mind and Body Die in Group Think Trapped in the Caves of 'fore Painting by Numbers
the Art that Remains Nearly the Same on Cave Walls still and within.

I wouldn't dispute people's right to stand on the soap box, I just don't think gears can mesh unless there's an agreed upon framework of analysis. It can be intensely gratifying sometimes to peddle like crazy on a bike that's in 10th gear, just that it's not as practical if one's hoping to get somewhere.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtXby3twMmI

Smiles my Friend; Seriously and Empirically Measurable, to some degree at least, there is no Greater Place Less than Heaven, except for Additional Experiences of Heaven. And again, Heaven is as simple as A Dance that is Free and tHere is nothing about Heaven that is Fantasy except that it is Real.

This is Philosophy Class that ironically, not unlike Martial Arts and Poetry, 'Left Brain Thinking Folks' insist on Making Science for they fail to use more than the other Half of their Human Potentials that for all Practical Intents and Purposes for them is 'Supernatural'; no different 'really' than someone who is Color Blind to Red and or Green.

In other words, this is the kind of 'Talk' that Folks Figure out once they arrive in Heaven for Heaven is a Place of Feeling And Sensing totally out of Word Think of Left Brain Metaphor of mind. In other Words too, I would Be 'Foolish' to believe that anyone would 'think' this makes any Real Feel and Sense until they Arrive in Heaven for Heaven is Beyond Word Think; so in other More Than Words literally Beyond Four Letter Words Like Love and Three Letter Words Less like God the following
'applies'.

Considering the Titanium Video I Linked and considering I doubt you saw the whole thing, if you've ever watched
it before; I find the Metaphor of Peddling the 10 Speed Bike, in Synchronicity, Amusing for it's true that's one way to Bring Transient Hypo-Frontality and the Experience of Flow in an Autotelic State of Being if the Challenge at Hand is stimulating enough From Head to toe in Mind and Body Balance to take one closer to Heaven now. With enough Experience in Meditative Flow of Free 'Golden Spiraling' Dance; the Bio-Feed Back of 5 Years; and in my Case 9901 Miles actually
doing it documented in Empirical Nike GPS Sports Watch Measure in an average of 166 Miles a Month in that Span
of Time provides me enough Bio-Feed Back where I can and will with Real Relative Free Will Increase my Experience
of Heaven by Lifting one Finger up or Typing Six Million Words in Flow in a Span of 5 years of Free
Verse Poetry too, in each Finger Stroke of Art, too, now. It's Just another Kind of Intelligence that
is beyond Standard IQ Measure of 'think'. And considering that rarely Folks in Western Cultures
attain the Experience of Heaven in Mechanical Cognition Ways of Seeing the World even more now; it is also
True that others in Research have Reported Similar Feelings and Senses of the Experience of Real Heaven too.

These are Physical And Emotional and Sensory Intelligences that are sadly Deficit in Human Potential for those Stuck
in Left Brain Word Think as I surely was for Decades, too; for I had no 'idea' then that use it or lose it as that
Applies to the Experience Within of Heaven that is Measurable Empirically to some Degree at Least
by the Scientific Method now is a 'Real Deal'. And this my Friend is a Greatest Scientifically Assessed
Deficit for Folks on the Autism Spectrum too. And this my Friend is how Doctors and other Professionals
who have seen me in the Dead Zone of Life and the Literal Life Zone of Heaven now Agree is How I for one
have literally Remedied all the Negative Symptoms of both Asperger's Syndrome and Bi-Polar Disorder with
A Flow of Free Dance And Free Verse Poetry that simply Joins Both Hemispheres of Mind together as a Synergistic
Force that is Beyond Measure of what any Scientist can put fully into words for it is more than Words my Friend; it is the
Actual Feel and Sense of the Bliss and Nirvana of Heaven now. I have an Actual Prescription for Dance; Doctors don't give
that out unless Science Assesses the Natural Medicine as Truly Proven Empirically Effective. Not all Doctors understand for some Doctors stop researching the Newest All Natural Solutions to their Patient's problems. And the reason I have it is
in case any of the Folks in the General Population are Ignorant to all the Benefits and give me any kind of Problem with it that include Empirical Measures of Reductions in the Potential of Diseases of Neurology that also include a 70 Percent Reduction in Chances of Acquiring the Dreaded Alzheimer's Disease along with a Reduction in the Potential of acquiring the Dreaded Disease of Parkinson's as another outstanding Benefit that would have never been applied to Moving
Meditation in the Past; although so-called Easterner's have intuited these Health Benefits for Centuries Before while Science Called Tai-Chi, Woo. And to 'think' all one has to do is do it 3 times a Week for that Benefit; imagine what
'Spinning a 10 Speed Bike' like this will do in Golden Spirals on foot for 166 Miles a Month for 5 Years. Yes, another
Benefit is more than Doubling my Leg Strength in a Quarter to a Half Ton as Empirically Measured in one Year From age 53 to 54 as i continue to get Stronger still now at age 58 while other Folks my Age Frown on Mall Benches with Mirror Neurons and NFL Football as close as they get to Feeling alive again, fully as such in all the ways that goes and actually comes now, too. Just Still Meditation as Science now assesses over Longitudinal Studies will Bring Health to a Brain of a 50 Year-old Person to that of a 25 Year Old Person in Physical Specimens that are actually Measured. So it's not surprising that Folks who See me Dance give me a Mulligan now of Two to Three Decades on my Age, commonly; and other Folks say how in the World Does someone your age do it. The Simple answer my Friend is I found the Answers that Worked all innately, instinctually, and Intuitively within Just like that Story of Jesus; however fictitious that may be as a story as Heaven is real Within always now in this Generation at Hands and Feet and sure there are many other Languages And
Terms in the Same Languages that Describes the Essence of the Heaven that is Real as Life now with Zero Doubt.

Yes; for many Years in terms of Science; Science Described this Heaven as Woo. Now Science is having to 'eat'
that Word with Real. And sadly, so-called Religious Folks from the Christian and Islam Flavors Believe that
Heaven is only Real in a Dirt Nap as such and that my Friend is A Saddest Self-Fulfilling Prophecy that
Currently Lives on the Planet Earth, in terms of the Original Greek Definition of Apocalypse and how
that relates to actually Lifting the Veils of Ignorance, including Failing to understand the Depths
of the Experience of 'Riding A Bicycle' that by the way I would never recommend as a way
to Find Heaven unless one finds a way to Spiral it in the Golden Mean Ratio of 1.618; No, I
don't have to do that by Mind think in words as the Pattern Comes Naturally as a SigNaTuRE
of 'God'/Nature in the Actual Dance Do Now of Physical And Emotional and Sensory Intelligence that
is 'me' now More Fully Expressing Now in Physical and Emotional and Sensory Intelligences; yes, more
now the Kinds of Intelligences that so-called Western IQ Fails now to Find More As Heaven IQ within;
And yes the Similar Applies to the Systemizing Science of Religions Staying within the Parameters of
Literal Left Brain More Conservative Think Tanks in Antiquated 'Religious Text Books' of the FundaMentalist
Past too as it's True most Western Science and Religious 'thinking' is still Funded in External Materialistic Pursuits
That Historically 'Speaking'
totally
Miss the
Greatest
Potentials of
Intelligences within
that have nothing to do with Word think at all.
I'm just aTTempting to do the 'impossible' and
Put Heaven in words where the most i will ever do
is provide a SpArk for a Flame for a Torch for the Bonfire i Live in Heaven of Ease and Please now.
True; Some Folks See it as only a Story Like a Saint Elmo's Fire on a Distant Island. Others Explore
And Do
Arrive
in Heaven
now the Eternal
Flame Within Beyond
Any Word of 'God' and or 'Love';
but for Some Rudimentary Understanding
for those who have yet to arrive; i will to continue
to caLL 'it' A State of Being that is Love Incarnate Now
For 'it' is all Positive Yin where only 'Dark' Spots of Yang get in;
Yes, my friEnd IT Is A Beauty Of A Sunset That Is The SunRise Forever Now.


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13 Sep 2018, 11:59 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
That would depend on everything that came before that sentence. Garbage in / garbage out.

I might also add another layer to this - the more narrow a claim is the more likely it has a fighting chance of being discernibly true or false. When it's really broad, sweeping, or general the likelihood that it's operating from an incomplete data set is almost a certainty.


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13 Sep 2018, 12:01 pm

Ban-Dodger wrote:
Regarding your references to so-called «heaven» ...

What needs to be understood here is that these are terms that will have different meanings and interpretations for different people based on their cumulative knowledge/experiences/biases/etc. This I know very well from having studied and researched... well... a crap-ton of subjects (even in-depth). The «Legalese» system being something of a parallel example that can easily demonstrate my point to a layperson...

Basically, even lawyers and judges often cannot agree with each other as to the correct or proper definition of some word, and so they go back to this «library» worth of written archives to find any «precedent» that might back up one position or another (this is the same process used amongst so-called Christian so-called denominations [more like cults and sects as with any other politicized institution] when they «quote» contradicting so-called bible-verses).

Anyway, the «jurisdiction» and/or definition-sets and/or contexts/language/dialect/jargon/etc., that now «plague» so-called society renders use of such words arbitrary unless well-defined in a contractual-manner (full of Legalese-sounding crap and all). See, what I mean here is that, any «controversial» subject is prone to being rife with euphemisms, such that I may have sailed out to sea in uncharted waters on a past day. Whilst sailing, I could have found a deserted island, decided to name it «Heaven», even write a book about «How to get to Heaven» or similar and it ends up simply being directions about returning to that particular co-ordinate. This becomes problematic when institutionalised (already happened with Israel with that «belief» about some physical-place on earth being the so-called Holy Promised Land... because some arrogant and rather delusional souls decided that it was a good idea to name a physical land-mass on earth after their religious-ambitions for the sake of their OWN wealth, power, and prestige, even though in the true context of ancient-language, Israel was not referring to a physical land-mass on earth).

Whilst I am myself clearly not a so-called materialist (who are always so-called atheist), I do know the history and back-ground behind why there has been historic precedent behind their «crusade» to discredit any and all «subjective» beliefs/experiences as being due to so-called super-natural authority (even though they seem to ironically not exert that same effort against the «super-natural authority» commonly called government/state), for religion (which governments also are) has had a history, according to various record-books of mass-murder, killings, genocide, etc (i.e.: crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, holocausts, witch-hunts, etc.; although for some reason they often fail to mention that even «atheist» government-regimes have also been known in the history books to be responsible for such mass-murders and genocide, for example, Stalin's former Soviet forced atheism where so-called practicing Christians were executed en-masse).

Also just going to throw in the tidbit that, from what I observe, I cannot honestly believe that there is any such thing as a true so-called «Atheist» in existence, for even so-called atheists revere so-called «government» as what can only be described by an outside-observer like myself as being their so-called God (they just use different euphemisms like «government» and «state» or «authority» or «ORDERS/COMMANDS» [Nazi-Germans, anyone ?] or so-called «Law» or «nation» to replace what was traditionally called «deity» or «god/Gods» or their written commandments/decrees/etc). All these modern-day «gods» (false idols) have their own «narratives» or «fairy tale stories» behind their existence, how they were born, etc.

All in all, I cannot help but to see the «unquestioning following» of ANY of these modern-day so-called «authorities» as a truly «super-natural» phenomenon, that «phenomenon» essentially being the «mind-control» over followers.


aghogday wrote:
-snip-


Hopefully; what I just replied will provide a little more 'clarity. :)


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13 Sep 2018, 12:05 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Then would the following conclusion template make sense to you? "With regard to claim ______, we can say with high/moderate/low degree of confidence that the available evidence implies that the claim may be valid/invalid and worth/not worth further study."
That would depend on everything that came before that sentence. Garbage in / garbage out.
Of course. Every investigation does.


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13 Sep 2018, 12:19 pm

I am just... going to step out of this thread now. The only acceptable definition to me regarding so-called Heaven was written by the very Messiah himself and his Legacy is now accessible to all for mental-consumption (reading).

aghogday wrote:
Hopefully; what I just replied will provide a little more 'clarity. :)


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13 Sep 2018, 12:33 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
That would depend on everything that came before that sentence. Garbage in / garbage out.
I might also add another layer to this - the more narrow a claim is the more likely it has a fighting chance of being discernibly true or false. When it's really broad, sweeping, or general the likelihood that it's operating from an incomplete data set is almost a certainty.
Agreed.

"I saw something that looked like a translucent thing with no fixed form drifting from east to west across the field next to my house. The time was about midnight. The full moon was out on a cloudless night. There was wind blowing from east to west. I had not been drinking in the previous 24 hours, and the only drugs I had taken were a statin and an aspirin. There were no other witnesses, and I did not make a video recording..." would probably indicate that something had happened.

"Me and the boys was down by the creek shooting catfish and drinking beer when something went 'whoosh' overhead and dropped into the water in front of us. We was all scared cuz we'd heard of them ruskies and nine-eleven and stuff, so we all cut and run back to the house. It got dark a few hours later, so we all went back to where we was and saw some people in white space-suits poking around the creek so we started hollerin and tryin to catch one but they got away in they spaceship. Next day we was divin and swimming in that creek looking for what they were lookin for but didn't find nothin cept these shiny rocks..." might not be taken seriously, even if it was a meteorite strike.


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.