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sly279
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24 Sep 2018, 6:04 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Of course democracy manages to thrive in countries that don’t have the draft at all.

I get the impression that MRAs hate the draft but rather than calling for its complete abolition they want women subject to it as well.

It's a bit like the communist revolutionaries who wanted to make the rich live in poverty rather than eliminate poverty. In both cases they prefer revenge over actually fixing the problem.


The draft is for situations of war where our loses our way the volunteers signing up and we’d lose the war. We’d lost ww2 without it. So abolishing it is bad. It’s like a fire extinguisher sure you may never need it but if you do you’ll be glad you have it.
European nations actively draft anyone as mandated service, the USA only does so in dire situations. Europe should probably move to a American draft system.



blazingstar
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24 Sep 2018, 6:41 pm

The last time I checked about men's opinion on draft status was the Vietnam war era. I don't believe most men were supportive of the draft. The point is not that women don't want to be drafted as much as it is nobody wants to be conscripted for war. Joining up is different. And I support our armed forces 100%.

I like Fnord's point by point explanations. They appeal to my sense of order and my easily distracted mind. I still don't understand why this thread about men's issues continues to cite "unequality" with women. Is that really the point? I know from experience that many of the things prometheus claims are "over" happened to me in my lifetime. I know also from experience that at times men get really shafted on custody issues and expectations regarding support and in general being the strong one, etc.

So, can we get back to the men's issues here? And not fight over whether or not the women are so favored? I really, personally, want to hear men's experiences and perceptions. I mean that in good faith.


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cberg
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24 Sep 2018, 7:27 pm

'Inequality' is not some flat, dimensionless construct that only applies where you choose it. Favoritism towards the rich, a particular gender or any other criteria is inequality, so yeah, it applies quite neatly between the sexes irrespective of what gender anyone may be.


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cberg
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24 Sep 2018, 9:20 pm

#1 men's issue: many guys are disrespectful to nasty levels & self-centered enough to rationalize it.

Saying a rights movement has reached its' goal is like saying "I plan on living forever; so far so good."


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CockneyRebel
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24 Sep 2018, 11:21 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
I agree that humanity's chances are slim - and getting slimmer, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make an effort.

I don't know if we're as bad off as we would be if massive social media censorship were enacted, ie. to ensure tripe and discourage/remove uncomfortable but necessary conversation.

Where I think we are is a place where we need to really get good at sorting out who uses information to get at and best approximate truth, who uses it only instrumentally to serve personal goals, and tell that last group from people who might be struggling to find truth but doing so poorly or while still holding onto one form of cherished dogma or another.


Yes, I think materially we're better off now than at any time in the past, but spiritually and morally the opposite is true.

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Your opinion is not my reality. I'd give my two eye teeth to serve on the front lines and I'm no weakling either.

I don't see the point you're trying to make here.


卐 That's because you don't know what I look like at 5-7 and 270 lbs with upper arms that would put a lot of men to shame. Add a German helmet to that and looking at me would be a real treat because I wear those. Mmmmm lovely. I'm also trans, not that it makes a difference to you. 卐


Don't post Nazi symbols, please.

Thanks.


Thank you for reminding me.


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cberg
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24 Sep 2018, 11:46 pm

What's bad about men's issue's & feminism just the same is that they indicate a LOT of people only thinking of one gender or the other. We need both but it's either misogyny or misandry to focus on just one.


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Mythos
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25 Sep 2018, 12:57 am

I gave up on this struggle not all that long ago. When people discuss politics, I'm largely looking at the impoverished (as a whole), public services and scientific literacy. Globally, it concerns strengthening alliances with trusting parties.

The divisiveness in identity politics is interesting but not key. Pushing for all inclusive policy and legislation will cut out the middle man, and potentially deal with other problems (poverty, homelessness, health, environment, education, anti discrimination, etc.), not to say feminism and other movements aren't important but the bigger picture is priority in my opinion.



Mythos
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25 Sep 2018, 1:10 am

cberg wrote:
What's bad about men's issue's & feminism just the same is that they indicate a LOT of people only thinking of one gender or the other. We need both but it's either misogyny or misandry to focus on just one.
I don't disagree entirely but what I do think is that each movement is comprised of individual members, voices, mentalities and even political affiliations.

As a male, if I support feminism (which I do, though I don't consider myself a feminist; I'll explain another time maybe) then I don't have anything to directly gain. If, and that's if, feminism directly benefits women only then it raises a question; why would I as a man ever think to support it? What do I gain?

Besides a rested conscience and a potentially needed voice in a national or global discussion, it's also safe to claim that feminism is not a structure that only supports women. If I want to be a stay at home father, for example, feminism would support such a decision. This alleviates pressures and concerns on me as a man, and by bringing down stereotypical barriers on both genders it benefits women as it should.

This is just one very small idea, but the encompassing point is that feminism creates synergy between men and women being who they want to be without societal boundaries.



Mythos
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25 Sep 2018, 1:27 am

blazingstar wrote:
The last time I checked about men's opinion on draft status was the Vietnam war era. I don't believe most men were supportive of the draft. The point is not that women don't want to be drafted as much as it is nobody wants to be conscripted for war. Joining up is different. And I support our armed forces 100%.

I like Fnord's point by point explanations. They appeal to my sense of order and my easily distracted mind. I still don't understand why this thread about men's issues continues to cite "unequality" with women. Is that really the point? I know from experience that many of the things prometheus claims are "over" happened to me in my lifetime. I know also from experience that at times men get really shafted on custody issues and expectations regarding support and in general being the strong one, etc.

So, can we get back to the men's issues here? And not fight over whether or not the women are so favored? I really, personally, want to hear men's experiences and perceptions. I mean that in good faith.
From personal experience, some so-called men's rights activists are simply an allergic reaction to feminist ideologies and principles. No, that doesn't mean that the MRM is only a sexist movement and nothing more, there are some that just want justice. Though it has been hijacked by toxic members that become the vocal minority.

The question here is; when does a movement become redundant or malignant as a whole? In my opinion, it's when more than half of its supporters have to sling mud at the other because they no longer have a constructive argument to make. So when MRA's have to yell at or demean feminists, or perhaps women in general, you know why they chose their position.

Regarding your comments on experiences, largely people like to use anecdotes or their own lives as a basis for what does and does not occur. Men have a hard time understanding women because they aren't women. Subsequently, microagressions and other minor issues can't exist or be relevant. This is confirmation bias and a component of the bigger picture as to why so many regard feminism as an unnecessary movement (most being men, from what I've seen at least).

Also, to see men's rights or women's rights as a pushback of the opposite gender is not productive. Of course, we can support both.

Maybe it's safer ditching labels and just advancing causes that you believe in? That's how I operate personally.



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25 Sep 2018, 10:35 am

Spooky_Mulder wrote:
Not a litmus test an observation...

You're back already? That didn't last long.

It certainly sounded like a litmus test. The only alternative is to assume that you meant that "[whether women are elected at an equal rate] depends on the seats [they run for]," and the facts don't support you in that case. The women who've run for the presidency have done pretty well, especially when compared to both the average performance of serious male candidates, and to their own credentials. If you compare Clinton, Fiorina or Dole to the top ten male candidates (by polling numbers or primary delegates), or to the top candidates capturing 90% of the support in the primaries, they got pretty far.

Consider also that very few senators have won the presidency, and that no Democratic nominee who was a private citizen when endorsed has won, regardless of gender.

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I know saying America is anything but great is controversial to both parties but America was never great.

Perhaps not, but we've at least had the dignity to keep our word when we've used the ploy you fell back on in your last reply to me.



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26 Sep 2018, 11:05 pm

I feel like TRUE feminists would want the same equal rights for both women AND men. Most of the women who call themselves feminists nowadays are just being man haters who want to blame men for all the problems in the world, but there are some women who see that life can be pretty unfair for men too and they don't believe that men should subjected to forced gender roles either.

Some of the many problems that men face in society that I'm aware of:

* Men have always been the ones to get drafted and forced to risk their lives fighting in wars.

* There are more homeless men in the world than there are homeless women.

* Men are taught as young boys that it is shameful and unmanly to get sad and cry but it is OK for girls to cry. They don't express themselves in a healthy manner because of this and it causes problems for them psychologically (men DO have emotions contrary to what society likes to think).

* Men are more likely to get the death penalty for crimes than women or get a longer prison sentence.

* A woman can physically abuse her husband or boyfriend and most of the time he will be too ashamed to admit it and seek help because people think that only men abuse women and if he is getting abused by a woman than that makes him "less of a man".



sly279
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27 Sep 2018, 12:03 am

Forgot men have higher suicide rate then women
Purr system favors women more then men

Man has sex with teen girl it’s horrible gets national news and he goes to prison for life
Woman has sex with a teenage boy and everyone just like ah well he probably wanted it, way to go boy, she doesn’t deserve punishment. This is both sexist to men and women, it assumes boys can consent while women the same age can’t mentally decide to have sex and so had to been forced, but science says women mentality mature faster then boys so if anything the boys aren’t mentally able to consent and are being taken advantage of. It disturbs me. Even when the women get jail time it’s far less then men who do the same.
Women who have sex with teens should get life as well. Wonder if it was a female adult sexing with a female teen how everyone would react

Oh then there’s the notion that the man has to be the provider and isn’t a real man if he isn’t,



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27 Sep 2018, 1:20 am

sly279 wrote:
Forgot men have higher suicide rate then women
Purr system favors women more then men

Man has sex with teen girl it’s horrible gets national news and he goes to prison for life
Woman has sex with a teenage boy and everyone just like ah well he probably wanted it, way to go boy, she doesn’t deserve punishment. This is both sexist to men and women, it assumes boys can consent while women the same age can’t mentally decide to have sex and so had to been forced, but science says women mentality mature faster then boys so if anything the boys aren’t mentally able to consent and are being taken advantage of. It disturbs me. Even when the women get jail time it’s far less then men who do the same.
Women who have sex with teens should get life as well. Wonder if it was a female adult sexing with a female teen how everyone would react

Oh then there’s the notion that the man has to be the provider and isn’t a real man if he isn’t,


That sickens me too. There really is a double standard in our society about thinking that it's ok for a grown woman to sleep with an underage boy. To me that makes her just as big a pedophile as a man who would sleep with an underage girl. But we don't like to think that female predators exist because I guess only men can be predators according to our society's way of thinking.



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27 Sep 2018, 7:46 am

Another thing that bothers me is that in school girls can bully boys and nobody does anything about it except pick on the boy for getting bullied by a little girl and yet we all know what happens to a boy if he tries to stand up to a girl who bullies him. :roll:



techstepgenr8tion
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27 Sep 2018, 4:00 pm

For a lot of the above I can say I'm finally, blessedly, coming out of that place where I used to whip and beat myself for the ways I got treated or failing society's knee-jerk conformity shibboleths.

The only way to fix it is really taking to heart, deeply, that human beings are just a species of animal and since truth has absolutely nothing to do with the evolutionary arms race (aside from maybe don't eat lead paint chips or you can't fly off the top of a five story building) it means that this will reflect in how people treat each other.

The other thing I'm learning - truth, in the minute detail sense, only matter to two types of people 1) business, government, legal, medical, and engineering consumers who need to know certain things for their livelihood to work out and 2) freaks, geeks, and misfits who need it to survive how society is treating them. Everyone else can ride the big raft of fantasy and self-delusion to varying degrees so long as it isn't punishing them enough for them to find themselves on the edge of suicide. Once a person finds themselves on the edge of suicide though, if they don't go through with it and realize with resounding clarity that the role they were typecast into by 'the game' lead them to that point, that's where they tend to break with society's prescriptions and stop conforming in all the ways that were demanded of them up until that point.

There are pros and cons to no longer conforming - one pro is that you feel far more free than you ever have in your life and you have a real fighting chance at actually having integrity and being able to live according to it. The biggest con to it - people will absolutely ignore you, ie. you either conform or you don't exist and in this case you will for the most part cease to be in the eyes of most people around you. That later punishment is what keeps 'normies' exactly the way they are and when someone really starts living life objectively and pursuing truth for its own sake it's usually because society played its hand so heavily against that person that the exclusion blackmail chip depreciated to zero or near zero value.


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