Scientific Truth VS Religious Truth - Dr Jordan Peterson on

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Pepe
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03 Nov 2018, 6:44 pm

Mikah wrote:
If you are about to argue that he only thinks it for crimes he thinks shouldn't be crimes... prepare to think again....

I am open minded...
Please give me an example of what you are saying/implying/suggesting...

Pepe wrote:
While I haven't had any dalliances with Mary, my understanding is that people who indulge, *overwhelmingly* aren't violent...
It was once said to me by a user this way:
"When I am on marijuana, I may want to strangle someone... but I'll do it tomorrow..."
True story...

My point?
It is my understanding that Mary induces a state of lethargy/mild-blissfulness, not aggression which is typical with alcohol consumption or meth abuse...

Mikah wrote:
I'm not so confident in this. There are concerning reports of a number of *horrifically* violent crimes that are committed "while high on cannabis", as the bylines tend to read, mostly by long term cannabis users.

I was under the impression that a link had been established between cannabis usage and lethargy. Please re-read the link I previously supplied...
And it was specifically stated that long term use could cause an erosion of motivation, generally speaking...

However, while there seems to be a link between cannabis use and schizophrenia, I do have to wonder if the incidences of psychosis-induced crimes are statistically significant relevant...
If you can supply a link it might be helpful...
Mikah wrote:
Pick your favourite recent terrorist attack. The killer is almost always on some form of mind-altering drug, half of the time they are long term cannabis users.

Could you provide evidence of your assertion that 50% of terrorists "are long term cannabis users"...
Or is this simply your guesstimation?
Mikah wrote:
Not proof of anything, but surely grounds for further investigation and holding off on legalisation. Maaaybee? As I said before, there are correlations to be found here, but not enough study to conclude or exclude causation. It could be the next tobacco or alcohol, only worse.

Cannabis use is well established in many westernised countries...
I believe the consequences are pretty well known already...
Are you referring to tax considerations, etc, or social changes, due to legalisation?

BTW, you seem to be ignoring Peterson's argument about the drug trade industries destroying social cohesion, etc...

And once again, isn't it an established fact that alcohol, heroine, meth, etc is much more detrimental to social cohesion than cannabis?

There are no perfect solutions...
It is a matter of weighing the pros and cons and finding a workable pragmatic solution, surely...
Peterson does this beautifully, imo...;)

P.S.
Just found this which might support your position...
You might like to follower through with this:
Quote:
So, where does weed, otherwise known as marijuana, fall among these categories? The answer isn’t as tidy as you might think. Its effects can vary widely from person to person. In addition, distinct strains and types of weed can produce different effects.

As a result, weed can be classified as a depressant, stimulant, or hallucinogen, according to the University of Maryland. However, it’s never classified as an opiate. https://www.healthline.com/health/is-weed-a-depressant


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Last edited by Pepe on 03 Nov 2018, 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Nov 2018, 6:49 pm

Mikah wrote:
Here's some quick google work looking for recent accounts of violence and cannabis. This is just a few pages of google news. I'll say it again, this is NOT PROOF or evidence of any causation. Some of them involve other drugs or alcohol. But it is a cause for concern and further investigation.

Billionaire playboy is sentenced to 20 years in prison for horrific drug-fueled murder of American heiress girlfriend who he strangled then mutilated in a luxury hotel suite in South Africa

Man beat partner with hammer and tried to suffocate her by stuffing underwear in mouth. High on cannabis.

Crazed cannabis user, 31, who gouged a seven-month-old boy’s eyes then threw him and his mother out of a window is jailed for life

THE 20-YEAR-OLD man accused of massacring his own family at Rundu appeared in the town's Magistrate's Court on a charge of murder yesterday. Police believe he was mentally challenged and high on cannabis.

Cruel thug BITES off his pet dog's nose while stoned - but avoids jail. This one is awful. Presumably some here believe he would have bitten off his dog's nose anyway, even if he hadn't been taking cannabis?

A TWISTED dad who spent the evening smoking cannabis before murdering his baby girl in a fit of rage has been jailed for a minimum of 18 years.

A man who murdered his girlfriend by stabbing her through the neck as she slept has been jailed for life. Billy White, 23, was drunk and high on cannabis and cocaine when he knifed Lucy Ayris at the home they shared in Pinkwell Lane, Hayes.

I left out most cases of drug-driving, but I might add that it doesn't seem to make users drive more passively.

Woman who mowed down mother and three children while high on cannabis is jailed

Banned driver, 31, high on cannabis who led police on a 115mph chase on a busy motorway in his brand new £55,000 BMW is jailed for 16 months

Speeding Mercedes driver was high on cannabis when he hit and killed student Charlie Heywood

A drug-affected L-plater who ran a red light in a stolen car and crashed into a shuttle bus in Perth, killing his teenage passenger, has been jailed for eight years. Steve Mason Mourish was 19 years old, unlicensed and high on cannabis in April when he led police on a chase, reaching more than 150km/h in a 70km/h zone before crashing into a bus in Kewdale at a speed of 130km/h.


Now you are cooking... :mrgreen:


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"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


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04 Nov 2018, 8:29 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
here's a thought though: Marx wrote in the communist manifesto that "all that is solid melts into air, all that is sacred is profaned." - Marx accused capitalism with its force of creative destruction of destroying social structures, all values besides capital and of making everything fluid.

The only pass I have to give Marx is that he had no idea what his philosophy would look like in practice.

The thing I found most interesting about Gulag Archipelago wasn't even necessarily the gulags, the nazi-style tortures and mental games, but something that got emphasized a lot more in Solzhenitsyn's writing which was a dark comedy of absolute ineptitude and stupidity. The one thing the soviet system had going for it was a monumental prison-industrial complex. If you weren't in prison you were in a situation similar to Salem during the witch trials where base human kleptomania reigned supreme, where we tend to mock or persecute our first-principles thinkers here they were guaranteed gulag over there. The government and government papers ran on conspiracy theories that might make Alex Jones blush and it was to cover for all the ways their flawless and impeccable technocratic logic was running aground against all kinds of unanticipated natural roadblocks - you had to postulate people deliberately wrecking things and they took that not just to the work microagression level but to the level of someone doing something right rather than doing it on the cheap or really just punishing someone who did it on the cheap if it fell apart but punish the competent profession for certain if they actually order what's needed to get a job done right.

So it was pretty much a land of no accountability, a banana republic, and integrity was by all intents and purposes illegal which meant that the schizoid bipolar cousin most people have who always thinks people are talking about them or scheming, or the cousin who inflicts some variant of Munchhausen's on her sons and daughters and wrecks their future, these were the types of people who were running the show and shaping the country.

I know no one is pro-communist here so I didn't say all of that with any notion in mind that you were defending it, but I think some of these angles are the ones very few people tend to put forward when they think out loud about it.



yeah.... have you seen "the lives of others"? it's a stupid film - set in communist germany, some guy wants the woman of another, and uses his powers in the corrupt system to get rid of that other guy, so he can get to the woman. it's supposed to illustrate how the system was horrible and allowed vile people to do vile things - which is true, but all sorts of systems did that. the point of really existing communism was not that it allowed a lerverted kind of freedom to some to get what they want - but that thy system was set up in a way that you didn't have to have a wife that is being desired by some vile officer - even if you had nothing, you were not secure of absurd torture and whatever. there was just no way of an individual to "play it safe" - by not owning too much, being modest, whatever.
you didn't have to make someone jealous, or make a mistake.

.... just wanted to complain about what a stupid film that was.


anyway. But the point here being: from my vaguely leftist, confused standpoint, science and capitalism started to erode social order, and while increasing individual freedom, and allowing people to pick their own meaning in life, the value of meaning was decreased. If "meaning" is what you're ready to kill for, than a liberal society can have none of that, except, maybe, liberal values.
Then Marx observed the changes and tried to make some predictions, figure out the best outcome (the robots do all the work, the robots are collectively owned and the products of their labour are being distributed equally... sound familiar?) and move towards that.
The fascists tried the opposite: rather than react to the social changes by trying to accelerate the way it was going to go anyway (according to Marx), they tried a conservative approach - how to make tight, happy societies that withstand the forces of modernity/capital by having a sturdy, traditiknal value system and an official enemy of those values.
Both approaches failed miserably for a handfulof reasons, and it's good they did - but that didn't stop the unravelling of social structures under capitalism. The neoliberal global order was a good idea to create yomething llike a global framework of rights and ways to trade with each other - but is also giving way more rights to capital thatn it is giving to humans, undermines democracy (Hayek wrote some scathing things about electoral democracy - and preferred the kind of democracy where you vote by chosing one commodity over another. he still called it democracy, but in his view, it was explicitely possible to have a dictatorial democracy (a dictator running the state, and freedom of choice in the store... like Lee Kuan Yew or Xi Jinping)) - and eventually has no mechanisms to factor in external costs, i.e. environmental costs.

what I'm trying to say is: Marx thought capitalism is creating the people who want socialism. Hayek thought that all democracy eventually leads to socialism. Aristotle thought that democracy leads to socialism. So why is someone like JP talking about resentful neo-marxists?
Maybe because he's a psychologist, and therefore prone to see everything through a framework of individual motivations and healthy or unhealthy personality traits?
Is that a good lense to view history and mass movements through?


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04 Nov 2018, 10:13 am

shlaifu wrote:
Maybe because he's a psychologist, and therefore prone to see everything through a framework of individual motivations and healthy or unhealthy personality traits?
Is that a good lense to view history and mass movements through?

He seems to take perhaps more of a consequentialist lens when dealing with these mass movements but considers that individual integrity, forthrightness, and capacity to think from first principles will keep people out of the sorts of dystopias that passions, fueled by pain, can get people into when they feel like the chips are down and don't have a well-considered plan but take an archetypally pleasing one instead. I think he's right to the extent that psychologically healthy and philosophically matured people who can think independently are the bullwark of society against the passions of the masses.

What makes where we're at difficult is that we're economically headed toward a stack of crap sandwiches. There don't seem to be any good choices and it may be every bit as bad as the Great Depression. There will be all kinds of people who don't want to hear that, don't want to think about that, some of them will do something helpful which is try to find ways to dampen the blow that automation, globalization, and massive overvaluation bursts combined are going to deliver to our economic structures. Other people might not have that in them, could be aptitude or a whole list of other things, but they'd be more inclined to follow the tune of one particularly stylish and eloquent strong man or another. We could find ourselves in a position bad enough where someone will say "Suspend the rule of law - just for a short time - and I'll get this all worked out.". I'd really have to hope that we've seen this motif play out in history enough times that everyone would know better than to let that happen, no matter how bad things get, but this is also one of the failures of democracies in that the right number of people taking self delusion and voting with it could bring the country down for the count and end any semblance of traditional liberal human rights for decades.

I think this is maybe where people need to look at Jordan Peterson as someone whose calling people to look at their internal structures and consider the degree to which deep and subconscious drives and urges tend to fuel politics. I think back to something that's rather in agreement with this, something that Robert Sapolsky said about the conscious mind not being predominantly reasonable but being more like a press secretary for our desires, and I'd add to that one where primal desires in the subconscious mind are very good at hiding especially odious aims and goals from that press secretary which goes on to make up some innocuous fiction about what they're trying to do or why when the real goal beneath those desires to action is much closer to something that Brett Weinstein would call the pursuit of a transfer horizon.

I grew up in an upper middle class neighborhood and got bullied mercilessly through school so the lesson of mass hypocrisy being part of human makeup and being something much more deeply embedded in the structure of what we are than just some sort of moral confusion got etched quite deeply. To that degree I've had to come away with a view of humanity as apes following ape programming with a veneer of selective civility when it serves our evolutionary drives. So much of what Jordan Peterson, and Jung, and any of the depth psychologists have been trying to do is get people to make the press secretary to deeply question and even reform the president through their own integrity rather than being a simple shill and mouthpiece for an amoral dictator. That's what people like Rebel Wisdom talk about with respect to 'inner work' or shadow work. I don't even think there's much space to argue that such efforts aren't a real thing that produce real results, the trouble is resolving the question of how many people would do such a thing - ie. rewire their inner animal and even domesticate it to lower its rank hostility and antisocial leanings. If even a slightly larger percentage of people who weren't already doing that start doing it, like if 5-10% of people out there were either doing it under the name of 'spiritual work' or were even doing it without any such knowledge but knew it was what made sense, if that number jumps by another 5% it would absolutely have significant positive effects on where humanity could go. If it even jumped 5% that means you'd have likely 10% more people than before also toying with the idea, picking it up and putting it down, giving half-fast efforts, but that would be yet another 10% over and above what you had before. That's the sort of project that's on the table when people talk about working with their subconscious programming and attempting to update it for civility, for Enlightenment values, for putting truth first, etc.


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04 Nov 2018, 1:05 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
At a minimum you'd need to decriminalize use - otherwise you still have a big mess, one the police increasingly don't want to get stuck enforcing and one where the dustpan picks up the 'dirt' and puts it behind barbed wire. With any substance we keep illegal we'd need to do whatever possible to minimize incarceration surrounding it, especially when it's a price paid in the interest of equal rights for all.


I disagree, I think the mess we're in right now is primarily due to the failure to properly enforce simple possession. If you decriminalise usage of drugs, then every other legal measure to reduce drug usage is a waste of time. It doesn't matter how many suppliers you take out, there will be so much money to be made, that there will always be someone ready to take the last man's place.

If being caught with any amount was a guaranteed prison sentence and police offered cash rewards for reporting drug usage, many many people would stop taking drugs, a drop in demand would have a knock on effect on supply. JP said it himself, the police don't care, they don't want to enforce the law. That is the failure of drugs "war", not the existence of the laws themselves.

Pepe wrote:
Please give me an example of what you are saying/implying/suggesting...


I thought my example was clear enough. How can large numbers of people breaking any law be a reasonable argument to get rid of the law? Surely what matters is the act and its effects on society, surely that is where the argument must be held. If so many people are breaking the law with impunity, then normally you look for failures in the system. You don't say ah well, we've reached a record number of speeding drivers this year, lets discuss decriminalisation. You say what the hell are the police doing?

Pepe wrote:
I was under the impression that a link had been established between cannabis usage and lethargy. Please re-read the link I previously supplied...


That's the message we get, perhaps it does have that effect on most people or perhaps the message is faulty. Yet there are signs that it has the opposite effect in many.

Pepe wrote:
I do have to wonder if the incidences of psychosis-induced crimes are statistically significant relevant...
If you can supply a link it might be helpful...


You are right to wonder, but there is not much that will put your mind at ease, enough work just hasn't been done and the work itself is fraught with difficulty. More studies are done year on year, most of them not exactly positive for the pro-cannabis lobby. I think that's why there is such a desperate attempt to get cannabis legalised before we actually know the drug as well as we know alcohol for example (they know once it's legalised it will be almost impossible to undo). Problem is, the money just isn't there to fund this kind of unfashionable work. All the money is behind legalisation, which should raise eyebrows in skeptical people. This is the link I usually send people who say cannabis is drug that makes you lethargic. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... t-behavior
Again, its not definitive, the studies are small, the conclusions suggestive. But it's worrying.


Pepe wrote:
However, while there seems to be a link between cannabis use and schizophrenia
.
There is a big problem studying cannabis and its effects on mental health. The whole profession is a bit wishy washy, the diagnosis for conditions often changes within the space of a few years. A good point made in the argument over the NHS and its treatment of mental health is that diagnoses are often missed, or misunderstood. They said that an increase of a mental health problem in any given area doesn't necessarily show up as increased diagnosis rates. It shows up as added homeless people, or added to petty crime data, or increased incidences of totally random violence. This as you can imagine makes studying it much more difficult than finding data that says if you smoke tobacco you are much more likely to get lung cancer.

Pepe wrote:
Could you provide evidence of your assertion that 50% of terrorists "are long term cannabis users"...
Or is this simply your guesstimation?


It's a guess, something that needs proper investigation too.

Pepe wrote:
Cannabis use is well established in many westernised countries...


It's not as well established as you think. Certainly not anywhere near tobacco or alcohol levels, those scourges whose effects we know all too well.

Pepe wrote:
BTW, you seem to be ignoring Peterson's argument about the drug trade industries destroying social cohesion, etc...


I wasn't sure what to think of it. Pretty sure drug usage alone does its fair share in destroying families and communities.

Pepe wrote:
And once again, isn't it an established fact that alcohol, heroine, meth, etc is much more detrimental to social cohesion than cannabis?


Debatable. Meth is certainly a horrendous drug. Heroin's dangers are somewhat overblown by the media, but still dangerous certainly. Even if you could prove that alcohol is somehow worse on some scale of evil and social disorder when compared to cannabis. That itself is not an argument for legalising cannabis, another potential or known scourge on a society, because "f**k it, who cares".

I think I understand what its like to be on the pro-gun control side of the debate in America. Some clever clogs on the other side saying things like "well assault rifles are lethal weapons, and they are legal, so why isn't my handheld napalm thrower legal?".
Pepe wrote:
Just found this which might support your position...


Yeah. There is a surprising amount of info out there showing unpleasant correlations. Its effect on otherwise promising young minds (as any teacher could have told you without a formal study) is particularly distressing.

Pepe wrote:
Now you are cooking... :mrgreen:


Is it unreasonable of someone to see that every day and wonder if perhaps a mind altering drug like cannabis is a factor in those crimes? Naturally correlation is not causation... it seems to be the only thing taught in school these days. But what is often neglected is that correlation is how you FIND causation. Correlation can actually be a sign of causation. Yet dodgy corporations and billionaires, wanting to make trillions off tobacco 2.0 are desperate to get it legalised and in widespread usage before anyone can dig into the stats and determine whether or not cannabis might have all the effects of a biblical plague on our societies.


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04 Nov 2018, 1:39 pm

Mikah wrote:
I disagree, I think the mess we're in right now is primarily due to the failure to properly enforce simple possession. If you decriminalise usage of drugs, then every other legal measure to reduce drug usage is a waste of time. It doesn't matter how many suppliers you take out, there will be so much money to be made, that there will always be someone ready to take the last man's place.

If being caught with any amount was a guaranteed prison sentence and police offered cash rewards for reporting drug usage, many many people would stop taking drugs, a drop in demand would have a knock on effect on supply. JP said it himself, the police don't care, they don't want to enforce the law. That is the failure of drugs "war", not the existence of the laws themselves.

So in other words United States of Singapore or bust. No thank you.


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04 Nov 2018, 2:01 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
So in other words United States of Singapore or bust. No thank you.


I usually think of Japan when I think of a good, well enforced drugs policy. Drug usage is much lower, crime is lower in many other areas (connected perhaps?) and it's not exactly an uncivilised, totalitarian police state.

Edit: Perhaps I should add that Japan's policies mostly originated with the serious problems they had with widespread methamphetamine abuse in decades past. The hard ass policy directed at users seems to have worked.


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04 Nov 2018, 5:13 pm

Well, with the way things are going and the number of people you'll be able to find who've never tried an 'illicit drug' in their lives to have such insufficient point of reference to believe similar things you might just have to do some ideological tourism and repatriation.

This moves in the direction of banning things not on harm but on the sanctity of social conformity and creating group sacrifices for the sake of social bonding. I'd add, from what I've seen in a lot of angles of how human culture works - everything from refusing to forgive past prison convictions all the way down to holding arbitrary taboos has a certain silver lining in that if someone crosses a particular line (with or without harming anyone else) they join a group who is marked as okay to take everything from and divide the spoils. We're very dark, grimy, and shrewd animals like that.

Who knows, with some luck we could have the Chinese social credit system, a healthy dose of modernized Confucian philosophy, and anything from having tried an 'illicit' drug to having purchased a book on mysticism to not showing enough interest in Dancing with the Stars will be big deductions in credit score. If the universe would be a better place of a comet or asteroid hit the planet and wiped out all of humanity then I'd say I'm all for government doing anything to people it feels like and taking away as many human liberties as it pleases because we're a form of cancer and it just wouldn't matter anyway. Until there's objective proof of that as a permanent status of our species I'd prefer to be something closer to a social/civil libertarian because I believe the more people explore their inner and outer terrain they actually resolve internal problems and become less prone to violence or acts of criminal stupidity where as mass acts of government paternalism seem to cut the opposite way and creates herds of permanent children.


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04 Nov 2018, 6:02 pm

I understand where you are coming from. I believe in maximising certain freedoms in a society governed by law, I just don't see much value in unlimited freedom to self-stupefy (which it does in almost all users, despite lofty claims of "mind expansion" or similar) and to seek instant pleasures normally provided through long periods of intense effort and deferred gratification. I believe a society that battles it through law is going to be much healthier than one that doesn't. The mechanism is not hard to follow.

Malcolm Muggeridge infamously resigned from his post at the University of Edinburgh in 1968 when the university relaxed bylaws on the selling and purchasing of cannabis. His final speech was met with some jeers. I wouldn't have put it quite so poetically, or with quite so much religious refrain. But there is truth in his words.

“The students of this university are the beneficiaries of centuries of selfless scholarship. You are supposed to spearhead progress and to carry on the torch of humanity. Speaking for myself there is practically nothing that you could do in a mood of rebellion against our impoverished way of life for which I should not feel some degree of sympathy. But how infinitely sad, how macabre that the form of your rebellion should be a demand for drugs, for the most tenth rate sort of self indulgence ever known in history. All is prepared for a release of new life. We await great works of art, the spirit of adventure and courage, and what do we get from you? Self centered folly. You are on a crazy slope. For myself, I always come back to the King, to Jesus, to the Christian notion that all our efforts to make ourselves happy will fail, but that sacrifice for others will never fail. A man must become a new man, or he is no man. Or so at least I have concluded, having failed to find in past experience and present dilemmas any alternative proposition. As far as I am concerned, it is Christ or nothing. Goodbye and God bless you.”


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04 Nov 2018, 6:29 pm

Mikah wrote:
JP said it himself, the police don't care, they don't want to enforce the law. That is the failure of drugs "war", not the existence of the laws themselves.

Could you clarify your context plz... ;)
Is it:
1. Police don't care about drug use...
2. Police don't care about the (soft) drug cannabis...
Mikah wrote:
I thought my example was clear enough. How can large numbers of people breaking any law be a reasonable argument to get rid of the law? Surely what matters is the act and its effects on society, surely that is where the argument must be held. If so many people are breaking the law with impunity, then normally you look for failures in the system. You don't say ah well, we've reached a record number of speeding drivers this year, lets discuss decriminalisation. You say what the hell are the police doing?

Quote:
In 1955 the rule on the buses in the city of Montgomery, Alabama, was that ‘coloured’ passengers must sit at the back and leave the front seats to white passengers. https://www.historytoday.com/richard-ca ... tion-ended

Quote:
Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg ... man_Honour

Quote:
Slavery in the United States was the legal institution of human chattel enslavement, primarily of Africans and African Americans, that existed in the United States of America in the 18th and 19th centuries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_i ... ted_States

My point:
Just because a law has been passed doesn't make it ethical, moral...or practical...
Most people have little respect for nanny statism...

Presumably you will be thinking:
"But that wasn't my context", and you would be right...
I am simply addressing the wombat in the room that all laws are not always reasonable...
Most thinking people think and don't simply accept everything/everythink the establishment dictates...
(Unless you live in a country such as North Korea)

Also consider the hypocrisy of the legalisation of alcohol which does considerably more social damage...
Where is the credibility... :roll:

Regarding: "You don't say ah well, we've reached a record number of speeding drivers this year, lets discuss decriminalisation."
In germany there is no speed limit on some roads: "many rural sections have no general speed limit."...
With the proviso that the vehicle is road worthy and under control...
We have similar roads and road conditions in some parts of Australia, yet we don't have any sections that have an unlimited speed limit...

My Point:
Laws are often arbitrary...

Now, if we consider the context of speeding drivers behaving dangerously due to poor road condition, poor control or introducing a wild cards factor (road cowboys) defying reasonable expectation by other road users, this "changes the game" entirely...surely... ;)

Now consider the following context:
The mary users that are at home and too stoned to get off the couch...
Chalk and cheese, surely... ;)

Because of the size of this reply is so large already, I will split my response in two parts... :mrgreen:


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"Hate me for who I am...Not for who you think I am..."
You have been weighed...you have been measured...and you have been found wanking...:P
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


Last edited by Pepe on 04 Nov 2018, 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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04 Nov 2018, 6:37 pm

Mikah wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
So in other words United States of Singapore or bust. No thank you.


I usually think of Japan when I think of a good, well enforced drugs policy. Drug usage is much lower, crime is lower in many other areas (connected perhaps?) and it's not exactly an uncivilised, totalitarian police state.

Edit: Perhaps I should add that Japan's policies mostly originated with the serious problems they had with widespread methamphetamine abuse in decades past. The hard ass policy directed at users seems to have worked.


Quote:
The introduction of medical marijuana laws has led to a sharp reduction in violent crime in US states that border Mexico, according to new research. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... s-us-study


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I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Hate me for who I am...Not for who you think I am..."
You have been weighed...you have been measured...and you have been found wanking...:P
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


techstepgenr8tion
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04 Nov 2018, 6:48 pm

Mikah wrote:
I understand where you are coming from. I believe in maximising certain freedoms in a society governed by law, I just don't see much value in unlimited freedom to self-stupefy (which it does in almost all users, despite lofty claims of "mind expansion" or similar) and to seek instant pleasures normally provided through long periods of intense effort and deferred gratification. I believe a society that battles it through law is going to be much healthier than one that doesn't. The mechanism is not hard to follow.

This is where I can't escape the conclusion that you're ideologically bent. Almost anyone I talk to who trips largely says the same thing I did. Almost anyone who had the outlook you put forward who does eventually get talked into exploring psychoactive substances has their views radically changed on what they are and what their value and purpose is. Most people I know who smoke weed daily, I can't imagine doing that and having the results they do but god bless them, they're highly functional people and plenty of which it actually acts medicinally in the sense that they were very high strung hair-trigger temper types and it helped them regrip and sublimate that. This is why I drew a picture earlier of someone still living on 5th grade DARE software - it sort of takes that to believe exactly what you're offering above, that or an explicit belief that the bible is the exact dead-literal word of God where all of these things would fall under pharmakeia, thus witchcraft, and any arguments for self-improvement through consciousness alteration are already smacking of Pelagianism when all you need is Jesus's death and resurrection - not self-improvement, not intellect, not anything else.


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05 Nov 2018, 12:18 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGK84Poeynk

One doesn't Always Find Truth In Religion And That's For Sure;
And it's even Rarer to Find Religion in Science except for when
Science
Becomes
A Symphony
With Emotions
And Not Just A
Science Abstract With No Soul.
It's Not really Hard to See Nature as
God in the Video included here with Carl
Sagan As A Rather Reserved Priest; and Neil
de Grasse Tyson as more of an Evangelist
Bringing the Good News that We are the
Cosmos Unto Itself as Carl Sagan puts
it in more of a Reserved Poetic Way
of Art. Carl Sagan, admitted that
His Usage of Hallucinogenic
Drugs Allowed him
the 'Mind Space'
in Greater
Open Minded
Ways to Question his
Previous Materialistic
Reductionist Views in Smaller
Of A Inner Multi-Uni-Verse of
Being Human; And Famous Atheist
Sam Harris Admits that Hallucinogenic
Drugs and Meditation Helps Bring him a Spiritual
Ascending Transcending Greater Mindful and Body Full
Awareness of Life, Increasing Human Potential too; as yes,
Science Shows this is Now True, Overall too. And Sam Also
Noted that for Some Folks stuck in a More Mechanical Systemizing
State of Thinking that it does take Some 'Substance Additives' to take
them out
of Neo
Cortex
Prison.
Some Of Us Folks, More Open
Minded And Bodied Require
No External Substances at all;
Just A Free Dance For me And A Free Write
is all i need; sure, i am one of the Lucky
ones where Heaven is just a Step away
of Dance Within and A Song to Spark
A Flame Then Torch and Overall
Bonfire of Loving all there is
to Love about Life in
other Words
God
also
known
felt
and
sensed as
All That Is for Those
Who Do come to be
Love iNCaRNaTE at/in
Essence of Human Form NoW.
Christianity; as far as the Actual Essence
of the Teachings per the Story of a Humble
Yogi-like Humble Dude Who Put himself as Humble
Servant And As Good Cop Jesus Version, Never King Above
Anyone Else; Who Also insisted that the Last are First This
Way as folks Still Vault His Story Book Version into A King
Instead of Servant that is Anti-Christ to the Essence of His Message
is Verily Disappointing Where i live as Politics is More Important than
Love overall as a Political Party that has acted against all the Beatitudes
of Jesus as Written Story is taunted as 'The God' to Vote for; Both at Catholic
Church i attend; and at an Extended Family Southern Baptist Group that Meets
on the Pastor's Farm We Attend once a Month For Dinner as they also Prayed for
the 'Anti-Christ' Political Party to Stay in Charge now. True; you don't take Health
Care away from the Poor and Give the Money to the Rich if you are anything like a
Christian Now and the
List goes on in
Lies over
Truth
too;
Per over 5000
Misleading Statements
and Falsehoods by the Head
'Anti-Christ' Dude in Charge Now
As That Phrase Applies to Against The
Beatitudes in the Story Book of Good Cop Jesus Still.
And to top that off, the Priest today while bringing some
Good News that Love Is the Only Two Commandments that
Count as far as Loving it ALL (GoD) As One Love Themselves; but that ain't
Gonna Work for a 'Narcissist' like Trump, who Loathes Himself to the Point
That he Needs Constant Approval from others to fill up the Empty inside; nope;
That IS the Definition
of the First
as the
Last
Still Now
so far away from
Anything that Hears or sees Love Now;
Anyway, the Priest Asserted that 'this Love
of Jesus' was no Emotion or Feeling but Just
a Neo-Cortical Rational Choice; as even though
he Graduated in the top 10 of His Class; he hasn't
Got the 'Memo' From Science Yet, Apparently that Emotions Move
Most of our Rational Decisions First; And When You Have no Love
Within to Move so-called Rational Decisions, you Get Trump and
Most of the Rest of the Republican Politicians now too; but of course
that is the reason most folks get into Politics for a Power and Status
High that never
Replaces
the
Empty
Place within
without the Real
Feeling and Sensing
of Heaven NoW oN EartH (LoVE)
Meh; The Deacon's Wife Agreed
with me at least; but it seems i have
A Way With Women More to Convince
Them About Stuff In Life And That's Good
Enough For me as you can't make people
Save their Souls from 'the other place'
away
from
Agape Love Now;
She even Agreed that
those who don't find Heaven
in Life Now as Love Will Never Find it in a Dirt Nap Next;
But of course; her Husband wasn't around when we talked about it.
Anyway; for Those Folks With A Soul in the Audience (Church and Farm)
The Cognitive Dissonance Must Be Squeezing Them a bit in HeART at least;
but it
did not
Appear
that the
Fire Of Agape Love
Lived Within; That's Sad;
Huuggeeely Sad And DArk
Away From: LiGHT Now So Long to: So Lost.


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Mikah
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05 Nov 2018, 6:44 am

Pepe wrote:
Could you clarify your context plz... ;)
Is it:
1. Police don't care about drug use...
2. Police don't care about the (soft) drug cannabis...


In my country, both. On the books there are rather draconian laws against possession. An unlimited fine and 5 years in prison for cannabis. In practice, it's very difficult to find someone who has even been to a court for simple possession of cannabis. Higher grade drugs are taken a bit more seriously, but not much. Police usually deal with cannabis by issuing a "cannabis warning" which is unrecorded. It's de facto decriminalised and has been for several decades. Drug usage has been going up and up ever since the police and courts stopped caring, but somehow people think de jure decriminalisation will make things better.

Pepe wrote:
I am simply addressing the wombat in the room that all laws are not always reasonable...


Don't disagree. You're avoiding my problems with the argument though. Mass breaking of a law is no argument for doing away with it. Argue the ethics, argue the morality. Don't argue that because many people are breaking the law that we should do away with the law. It's the argument of a moron, which my crass example applying it to rape was supposed to highlight. I should have stuck to the rape example, it works much better. According to some sources, rape is an epidemic in our countries. Rape culture. What was it? 1 in 3 women apparently raped in college. It's a very difficult crime to prosecute too. Let's do away with the law right? Right?

Pepe wrote:
Also consider the hypocrisy of the legalisation of alcohol which does considerably more social damage...
Where is the credibility... :roll:


I've covered this, the problems with alcohol are an invitation to discuss further restrictions on or banning alcohol entirely. It's not an argument to introduce yet another drug.

Pepe wrote:
The mary users that are at home and too stoned to get off the couch...
Chalk and cheese, surely... ;)


Didn't I also cover this too? Doesn't seem to stop many users from driving like lunatics. There's a worrying number of users who go on to commit extreme violence while under the influence of cannabis. One chap was not too stoned to get off his couch and bite his dog's nose off.

Pepe wrote:
The introduction of medical marijuana laws has led to a sharp reduction in violent crime in US states that border Mexico, according to new research. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... s-us-study


Not entirely unexpected. I still stand by my point that the involvement of gangs will not cease unless the government refuses to tax it. Is having cannabis in the hands of cynical corporations really that much better for society? The same kind of people who sell tobacco, who spent billions lobbying, advertising, dismissing correlations about tobacco and cancer? I'm not so sure.


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05 Nov 2018, 7:02 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
This is where I can't escape the conclusion that you're ideologically bent.


And you are not bent the other way? Bent towards maximising your ability for self-indulgence and "experimentation", its effects on the rest of society be damned? Is it so wrong to ask you to stop doing something to benefit your fellow citizens?

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Most people I know who smoke weed daily, I can't imagine doing that and having the results they do but god bless them, they're highly functional people and plenty of which it actually acts medicinally in the sense that they were very high strung hair-trigger temper types and it helped them regrip and sublimate that.


No other way to deal with tempers of course. Meditation? Self-control? Real medicines prescribed by doctors? No, it has to be "self-medication" with a toxic substance which not only destroys physical health, but potentially will see them in a mental asylum in a decade or two. And what's more this substance should be freely available to all, high and low, to use recreationally, sold and advertised by the people who run tobacco companies.


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And know the place for the first time.