Scientific Truth VS Religious Truth - Dr Jordan Peterson on

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shlaifu
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23 Oct 2018, 4:22 pm

I should say: Peterson makes some good general suggestions - I'm not doubting him as a therapist.
Making plans, for example, so you know what you're working towards.
that's the structuralist approach.

reconciling with the anima... uhm... well for some, that helps them come up with a strategy, I guess. But the practical advice in this is "get a girlfriend". however, it comes with this huge baggage of Jungian mysticism...


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techstepgenr8tion
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23 Oct 2018, 4:48 pm

I think with Peterson most people would have to listen to him at length, like downing one of his Maps of Meaning courses (I went through the whole 2015 curriculum a couple years ago when he first surfaced) to have a fully formed opinion because there's a lot there, enough that if someone disagrees with him they'd have to specify on what in particular.


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23 Oct 2018, 9:50 pm

shlaifu wrote:
- but knowing that human males are attracted to females is not necessarily useful in therapy.


Would you agree that the human affinity with a state of denial is a manifestation of the evolutionary process?
This dissociative process/mechanism is a means of emotional protection...
This would undoubtedly be of major advantage in the big picture, surely...

Religion and spirituality, from my perspective, embraces a delusional/fantasy state of mind which is effective in coping with the harsh realities of life...
Being aware of the psychological mechanics created by the evolutionary process seems to be essential in helping those who have dissociation issues for example...

John F. Schumaker wrote a book called: "The corruption of reality" which discussed the benefits of perverting reality for the benefit of the individual and social cohesion in general, btw...

The trouble I have with his concepts, however, is that he advocates embracing delusion/reality-corruption/religion/spirituality for the sake of social cohesion, something I have absolutely no time for...

<quote>
"This groundbreaking volume examines our sometimes strained grasp of reality and sheds new light on three subject areas that continue to fascinate researchers: religion, hypnosis and psychopathology.

The Corruption of Reality challenges many of the ideas in all three disciplines and paves the way for an exciting, far-reaching and unified theory of conscious and unconscious behavior. Schumaker argues that, despite their apparent differences, religion, hypnosis, and psychopathology are all expressions of the unique human ability to modify and regulate reality in ways that ultimately serve the individual and society. In turn, these same behaviors can be traced to the brain's remarkable capacity to process information along multiple pathways, thus allowing the person to manipulate reality in strategic directions aimed at improved coping. He includes a historical and cross-cultural analysis showing how reality reconstruction takes place, and outlines the shortcomings of current psychotherapeutic approaches as well as the promising trends toward a spiritualization of psychotherapy. https://www.amazon.com/Corruption-Reali ... 0879759356"

<brrrrrrr> 8O



techstepgenr8tion
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23 Oct 2018, 10:08 pm

I listened to another recent interview with him, this one was Valuetainment's channel, and I might have spotted another thing that I like about the way he thinks. Patrick asked Jordan if he had photographic memory, he said that he knows people who do but that he clearly doesn't, Patrick pressed him on that because he was a little surprised and Jordan explained that as he built his worldview his memory worked in such a way that things stuck if they had salient positions in the structure of his understanding in the world, and I'd guess most saliently if they were pivotal pieces of information with respect to knocking down beliefs he'd previously held and found to be wanting.

That's quite a bit like how I function myself, although I could never imagine reading 'a book a day' as Jordan said he did through his teen years, and on top of that three hours a night for fifteen years writing and rewriting Maps of Meaning (he said he most likely reread/edited every sentence in it close to fifty times). I could never hold a candle to his work ethic but wow, definitely gives me a high-water mark to aim for.


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23 Oct 2018, 10:30 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
. I could never hold a candle to his work ethic but wow, definitely gives me a high-water mark to aim for.


Based on what was in the introductory video about Nietzsche's philosophies I recently posted, embrace that envy!! !

"You go girl"... :P

ACHTUNG! WARNING!
The following video is very, very naughty... 8O

https://youtu.be/jCT6vnUNOv4



techstepgenr8tion
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23 Oct 2018, 10:43 pm

Pepe wrote:
ACHTUNG! WARNING!
The following video is very, very naughty... 8O

https://youtu.be/jCT6vnUNOv4

I saw those guys live something like 8 to 10 years ago at RoverFest. Fascinating that the guys in the crowd liked em but the girls were off the chain.

My friends and I were really big into Dj Funk as well around 1998-2000 so my mind was already expanded for this sort of thing. :)


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“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


techstepgenr8tion
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25 Oct 2018, 6:25 am

Jordan coming down on the side of science:


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shlaifu
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25 Oct 2018, 7:50 am

Pepe wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
- but knowing that human males are attracted to females is not necessarily useful in therapy.


Would you agree that the human affinity with a state of denial is a manifestation of the evolutionary process?
This dissociative process/mechanism is a means of emotional protection...
This would undoubtedly be of major advantage in the big picture, surely...

Religion and spirituality, from my perspective, embraces a delusional/fantasy state of mind which is effective in coping with the harsh realities of life...
Being aware of the psychological mechanics created by the evolutionary process seems to be essential in helping those who have dissociation issues for example...

John F. Schumaker wrote a book called: "The corruption of reality" which discussed the benefits of perverting reality for the benefit of the individual and social cohesion in general, btw...

The trouble I have with his concepts, however, is that he advocates embracing delusion/reality-corruption/religion/spirituality for the sake of social cohesion, something I have absolutely no time for...

<quote>
"This groundbreaking volume examines our sometimes strained grasp of reality and sheds new light on three subject areas that continue to fascinate researchers: religion, hypnosis and psychopathology.

The Corruption of Reality challenges many of the ideas in all three disciplines and paves the way for an exciting, far-reaching and unified theory of conscious and unconscious behavior. Schumaker argues that, despite their apparent differences, religion, hypnosis, and psychopathology are all expressions of the unique human ability to modify and regulate reality in ways that ultimately serve the individual and society. In turn, these same behaviors can be traced to the brain's remarkable capacity to process information along multiple pathways, thus allowing the person to manipulate reality in strategic directions aimed at improved coping. He includes a historical and cross-cultural analysis showing how reality reconstruction takes place, and outlines the shortcomings of current psychotherapeutic approaches as well as the promising trends toward a spiritualization of psychotherapy. https://www.amazon.com/Corruption-Reali ... 0879759356"

<brrrrrrr> 8O


a state of denial as a result of evolutionary processes...
that is a pretty generalized idea... first: we are not equipped with enough senses to perceive the world as it is.
we have no sense for, say, most of the electromagnetic spectrum.
our perception of the world is therefore necessary incomplete and results in incomplete data. the brain is the apparatus that interprets this incomplete data, and interpretations are necessarily individual at first, and then negotiated between members of a given group.
so ... yes, evolution can explain how this comes about.
you can speculate as to why, as with all evolution. - as long as you remember that evolution means "survival of the survivors".
imagine a people that had the "right" view of the world, understood how to live and all and then got wiped out due to some volcanic eruption. well. tough luck.

peterson says that "everything is meaningful" - an assumption also held by C.G. Jung - and which made Jung a believer in the paranormal. I'd like to calim: the eradication of this previously imagined perfect people is a random event, and all we can understand from it is that volcanoes erupt, and that that poses a danger - but the Peterson and Jung approach to interpretation doesn't allow for contingencies like that.
which makes them delusional new-agers to me.

of course, again, peterson also gives useful structuralist advice. if you know you're unorganized, get a calendar. but finding the reason behind this advice in ancient myth and something about snakes of chaos is overkill.


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shlaifu
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25 Oct 2018, 7:52 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Jordan coming down on the side of science:



which is what I mean when I say: he's part reasonable, part zealot.


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techstepgenr8tion
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30 Oct 2018, 8:10 pm

About six months old but wow, pretty brutal.


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01 Nov 2018, 7:06 pm

Nice to be back on the forums and for some reason techstep, JP caught my eye.... :)

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Jordan coming down on the side of science:



Once a certain number of people break a law, then it's not reasonable to have the law.

How many rapes before we make rape legal? Not a good argument.

It's irrational in some sense for marijuana to be illegal, especially given that alcohol is legal and way more dangerous...

I wouldn't say the science is settled on the dangers of cannabis. There are many worrying correlations with mental illness, general mental decline and violent behaviour that keep popping up and we have not conclusively excluded cannabis as causation. We're roughly where we were with tobacco in the 30s and 40s. Lots of worrying correlation, but no hard evidence (something pounced upon by the pro-tobacco lobby) and scientists weren't happy to proclaim causation until a couple of decades later. Not to mention the obvious, but weed when smoked is not great for the lungs either. Even if you put aside the possible effects on mental health, when you have two habit-forming poisons that cause serious health damage and other maladies being legal there is no kind of moral argument for making further poisons legal, more widely available and tacitly approved of.

I'm a libertarian argument, total personal autonomy is great

What really irks me about this line of argument is linking of the freedom of thought, speech and association with the freedom to zonk yourself out so you don't have to think, passively accepting the world rather than trying to change it, much like taking Soma in Brave New World. Ok, I see the logic, but I don't think much of this argument either.

Boilerplate organised crime argument

If governments tax it, and they will, heavily, there will still be a ton of illegal cannabis available. Tobacco smuggling is still huge all over the world despite being legal. One study suggesting that as many as 1 in 3 cigarettes smoked in London is illegal. For many gangs tobacco smuggling is the crime of choice, it's simply more profitable and less risky than trafficking controlled substances.

To be fair to him, he at least didn't say Portugal was a success, as many lobbyists try to paint it. "Not a catastrophe" I suppose that is a fair enough evaluation. This whole cannabis argument needs to be stripped of this boilerplate sloganeering.


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02 Nov 2018, 6:37 pm

Mikah wrote:
Nice to be back on the forums and for some reason techstep, JP caught my eye.... :)

Good to see you back...;)

Mikah wrote:
Once a certain number of people break a law, then it's not reasonable to have the law.

How many rapes before we make rape legal? Not a good argument.


I have a problem here...
One must consider the context of both statements...
Obviously they are different...

*Simplistically*, on the surface:
One statement refers to a victim-less crime...
The other does not...

Hence, what is presented here is a straw man argument and is invalid...



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02 Nov 2018, 6:42 pm

shlaifu wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Jordan coming down on the side of science:



which is what I mean when I say: he's part reasonable, part zealot.


If the binary was to totally agree or totally disagree with Peterson on his position regarding the legalisation of Mary,
I would totally agree...

<K.I.S.S. mode off>



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02 Nov 2018, 6:53 pm

Pepe wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Once a certain number of people break a law, then it's not reasonable to have the law.

How many rapes before we make rape legal? Not a good argument.


I have a problem here...
One must consider the context of both statements...
Obviously they are different...

*Simplistically*, on the surface:
One statement refers to a victim-less crime...
The other does not...

Hence, what is presented here is a straw man argument and is invalid...


It's not a straw man, I have not implied he believes it of rape, I am just using an example to point out the vacuous nature of that argument.

Also, taking illicit drugs, much like alcohol abuse and smoking tobacco, is not victimless. Unless you a) live on a desert island and b) have no friends or family that care about you. The potential effect on taxpayers and society aside, if you drink or smoke yourself to death, or take mind altering drugs and end up with an incurable malady or otherwise become a burden to your family, they are victims of your misconduct surely?


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02 Nov 2018, 7:10 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
About six months old but wow, pretty brutal.



This video nicely validates my concern about Peterson's philosophical premise...
I have a problem with his belief in the existence of a core spirituality of life...

Not a problem...
To each their own...<shrug>
Just saying... 8)



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02 Nov 2018, 8:36 pm

Pepe wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
About six months old but wow, pretty brutal.



This video nicely validates my concern about Peterson's philosophical premise...
I have a problem with his belief in the existence of a core spirituality of life...

Not a problem...
To each their own...<shrug>
Just saying... 8)


yup ....

I watched the GQ interview the other day - it was funny, that of all outlets, GQ would hire a qualified feminist to talk to him. It's a good interview, both appear quite upset towards the end, but keep talking civilized and all.

anyway. they argue a bit about capitalism - and he does his usual everything's-better-due-to-capitalism routine, which is correct, but ....

here's a thought though: Marx wrote in the communist manifesto that "all that is solid melts into air, all that is sacred is profaned." - Marx accused capitalism with its force of creative destruction of destroying social structures, all values besides capital and of making everything fluid.
German philosopher Peter Sloterdijk, in "terrible children of modern times" (I don't think it's out in English yet, but once it is, grab it. It's ... amazing, in the literal sense) makes the argument that in modernity, those who denounce their tradition, those who denounce their fathers - the bastards - took over. Profit is in doing things differently, "disrupting" industries, trades, ways of life, traditions.
Now here's what I don't get: how would one integrate tradition etc into a social order in which the accumulation of capital is the only thing that's considered worthwhile?

I'm not against tradition. I prefer it on aesthetic grounds. 100%. But clients want it cheaper, faster .... they don't care about quality - which, in aesthetics, is almost a spiritual thing... there's definitely a right way to do things in aesthetics, even though that right way looks different in japan or china.... and apprenitces learned that right way by studying with a master for a decade. Today, if you can sell it, who's to say it's bad?

I don't see where the postmarxists - which JP consistently treats with contempt and without engaging with their ideas and the fact that these grew out of ww1, to which the traditional ideas lead up to - come in to "destroy western values" ... capital started that hundreds of years earlier...


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