Page 6 of 9 [ 126 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Heat844
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

Joined: 1 Jul 2018
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 126
Location: South Florida

12 Nov 2018, 12:05 am

As with all social issues, I don't completely agree with either side on this one(When you're all the way on one side or the other of a social issue, you tend to be guided by beliefs more than facts). I think its possible nowadays for a woman to know if she's pregnant 8 days after confession. So I think the deadline for abortion should be 1 month after conception. There's no excuse for a woman deciding halfway through that she doesn't want the baby. If it was even a question, they shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place and should've used birth control if they weren't intending to get pregnant. I think pro-choice is actually pro-female sexual irresponsibility. I know I'm gonna get flamed for this part but (at least in western society) its the woman who grants permission to have sex(unless of course she is raped), so since she is in control, she bares the responsibility that comes with being in control.

I'm not saying 1 month is right, but I think its sensible and a fair compromise between the two sides.

Christians who are against abortion because religious reasons are slightly hypocritical because apparently in the bible it says that life begins 18 days after conception because that's when the fetus is infused with blood. So why don't they accept an 18 day deadline? Maybe 18 days should be the line. I'm cool with that.

The person who said abortion is a women only issue should try getting pregnant without a man. You're case and point regarding being guided more by beliefs than facts.

I wonder if being a father or father-to-be would make me more pro-life.

@LoveNoteHate: I don't kill bugs either. I accidentally killed a snail a few days ago and I feel really bad about it.


_________________
Democrats Create Mobs, Republicans Create Jobs


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,446
Location: Stendec

12 Nov 2018, 10:08 am

While everyone is free to have and express their own opinions on this subject, I believe that only women should be allowed to decide (1) if abortion should be a legally-recognized right for all women, and (2) whether or not to get an abortion.

No man should ever be allowed to decide what a woman's reproductive choices should be.



XFilesGeek
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,346
Location: The Oort Cloud

12 Nov 2018, 12:02 pm

Mikah wrote:

You can't just blow them away if they stumble or sneak onto your property. This seems pretty reasonable to me. Does it not to you?


If someone invades my property, and I feel threatened, I can, in fact, kill them. I am also not legally required to place myself in physical danger just to save someone else just like I'm not legally required to provide my body to sustain another person's life.

Quote:
Your property sustains life. You do understand that you can't murder (or have someone else murder) the poor family in the course of reclaiming your car right?

Edit: thanks for keeping this going, I have a new argument in my arsenal against abortion. Where else in law can you kill to protect property rights? I'm aware this may not be the case for our wayward American cousins across the pond.


You do understand that someone can't keep my car if a thief gives it to them just because they "need" it, right?

And you're welcome.


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (moderator)


XFilesGeek
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,346
Location: The Oort Cloud

12 Nov 2018, 12:03 pm

Fnord wrote:
While everyone is free to have and express their own opinions on this subject, I believe that only women should be allowed to decide (1) if abortion should be a legally-recognized right for all women, and (2) whether or not to get an abortion.

No man should ever be allowed to decide what a woman's reproductive choices should be.


8)


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (moderator)


aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,473

12 Nov 2018, 1:56 pm

A Bottom Line 'HeaR' is Abortions are
Never Going Away as Long as Humans
Are Humans as Abortions are Part of Animal
Nature and Human Nature Still too as Nature
And God As Nature if ya wanna put a 'Theist'
in 'Realiest' too that is all that is Really Real True;

As Already Mentioned in the Discussion for Any Folks
With a Reasoning Mind who Pay attention to the Facts at
Hand; the topic of Abortion has Been Thoroughly Researched
By the World Health Organization; and yes, in those Third World
Countries; where so many Folks would wish upon 'A Star' of Religion
to come here too; where Yes, Abortion is Illegal in so-called Catholic
Countries like Mexico too; There are as many Abortions there as there are
here now too; only difference is they are Medically Unsafe and Many more Living
Beings; Both Fetus, and or Newly Born Child, and Mother too Suffer More Pain and
Misery in Both What comes Before Death And what Stays as Permanent Disability too.

Do More Harm
or Do Less Harm
is An only Question
And Answer that makes
Sense here; Fortunately, On
An International Basis for Folks
Who are Scientists, instead of Religious
Zealots Imposing Ignorance on those with
'Smaller Feathered Nests'; We Do Have the
World Health Organization and as the 'Dragnet'
And the 'Facts' Go; Just the Facts Sir/Ma'm Without Ignorance Still now:

It's Like Killing A Bug, when you have the 'Terminator' Folks Do IT; And IT is out of your purview.

It's Like Taking Away Health Care from the Poor Where over a 100K Folks Stand to Lose their Life;
And Millions More Fall to Lose their Health Care for Health and Well Being as Productive Citizens Now too;
And then 'by God', Taking that Action to Take the Health Care From the Poor And Give Welfare Tax Breaks to the Rich.

And yes, it's like IF the Catholic Church, and their Over 65 Demographic, and the other Parts of the Demographic
Who Want to See Abortion Go Away ever get their Ignorant Wish; The Abortions Will Still Happen in 'Back Alley Ways'
that are Medically Unsafe; And As Many or More Living Beings Will Likely Die and Suffer Much Greater Misery and
Suffering and Permanent
Disability too.

Out of Sight
Does Not Mean
Out of Reality; but
Humans who are 'too small'
to see a Bigger View out of Ignorance
of what Happens out of their Sight Kill; do Kill and Maim, 'the Innocent' still more.

If you Hire the 'Terminators' to Kill Your Bugs in all the ways Terminators
And Bugs Do Live and Die; You Still Kill the Bugs for the Reality of Now and
yes as
Far
as
Nature
and God
Goes you
Do Kill more
of Nature in Suffering
And Misery more too
Now as PArt of (GODALL) too.

It doesn't take a Math Major
to Figure that out; but it does help.

People Love Words
More than Reality
these days as
Emptier
Shells
still;
Square
One Root
Problem One Away from
Nature as Humans continue
to Become HeARTless Tools without
ReaSoN; More Than Just F iN Humans
With A Common Sense And Feel About Life That/Who Harms Folks Less.

Just my Opinion now; not directed at anything but the topic And "The You"
In General That and Who is no Name but You for the Entire F iN Human Species.

Yes; JusT
For F iN
Fun too..;)

Fortunately;
Fully SmART
Folks With
reaSON Vote too;
So, as Long as we do remain
A First World Country, 'Third World
Religions' Will Not Rule Ignorance 'HeaR'..:)

But i Will Not 'Tale' a Lie at 'the Top' now we are already a Third World
Country; And Worse Now for Humans who Cannot/Will Not Tell the Truth
are at
the
Very
Bottom
of Both Maslow's
Pyramid; Fowlers'
Pyramid of Not Only
Agape Love For all in
Honor and Integrity too;
but at the Lowest Pyramid Levels
For Critical Discussion for Rationality
No Different Than Ad Hominem Attacks
Away from the Topic and directed to a Person
in Particular That are Part and Parcel of Lies now too.

And the Fact that Religions/Churches are Still Against
Safe and Effective Contraceptives is A Whole Lot Worse
Than Not Believing in Evolution Now; and God
Yes More, in Just one Lifetime of Human too;
For it's
True
That
Anti-
Contraception
Policy Directly
Increases Harm
And Abortions and
Overall Human Misery and Suffering too
Away From F iN Surviving Thriving Life Now True, too.


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


Mikah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2015
Age: 31
Posts: 1,189
Location: England

12 Nov 2018, 2:09 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
If someone invades my property, and I feel threatened, I can, in fact, kill them.

Rather key distinction here. You can kill someone in self defense, if you have reasonable cause to believe your life is in imminent danger and the use of such force is deemed necessary, on property or not. Using your property is not a good enough reason, you'd be tried for murder.


XFilesGeek wrote:
You do understand that someone can't keep my car if a thief gives it to them just because they "need" it, right?


These silly hypotheticals... Ok car example now. The car has been disassembled and its battery is now hooked up to someone's life support machine. You can't disconnect them just to retrieve your battery. That is murder in the course of retrieving your property, you are not allowed legally or morally to do that.


_________________
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.


beady
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 22 Sep 2013
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 462

12 Nov 2018, 11:03 pm

I've had three children and one spontaneous abortion.

I believe no person should be forced to sustain another against their will.
Figure out a way to sustain life independent of another person but even if you could, I still would believe you have no right to prevent me from removing my DNA from the embryo.

Pregnancy and childbirth often leave lfelong scars and/or damage even in the best of circumstances. We all know the USA most assuredly does not offer the best of circumstances since so many people have substandard healthcare or none at all.

Anyone that wants to force another human to have a baby should be forced to contribute x amount of dollars to raise that child to age 18 whether that child is put up for adoption or not. Put your money where your values lay.



Uiteindelijk
Butterfly
Butterfly

Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 17

15 Nov 2018, 8:32 am

warrier120 wrote:
I often think about what would happen if a prenatal test for autism did become developed: there would be lots of aborted autistic fetuses. In that case, I would be pro-life because an autistic life is worth just as much as an allistic life. In cases where the baby would not live long due to an inherited condition or disease, I would consider abortion acceptable.


I have considered the same, except in relation to genetic editing. If there was a way to test for this, and editing was viable, then the parents wouldn't need to get an abortion: they would simply edit away the traits they don't like. Considering that this would allow parents to pick their child in one go, rather than by trial-and-error with abortions, it seems much more likely that this is what people would try to do. Thus, I am not that worried about abortion in this case, because it is much less efficient, and thus will likely be less utilized, than other potential techniques.

Telling women to carry on with a pregnancy because the resulting baby can be adopted is an absurd lie. My understanding is that tens of thousands of people age out of the adoption programs every year. If people really believe this adoption reasoning then they can prove it by adopting the people that are already available.

While I agree that life in general has value, in many cases, it is easy to imagine that ending abortion isn't saving lives, just trading lives. For instance, I had a friend who became a single mom at 18. Ten years later, she is still a single mom with one child. It is easy to imagine an alternate reality in which she got an abortion instead, which gave her time to look for a lifelong partner. In turn, they could have two children by now instead, albeit younger children. What makes the first pregnancy more valuable than potential later pregnancies?

In addition, it is difficult to consider a fetus to have great significance when they are so easy to produce. Someone got an abortion because they don't feel this is the right time? They can just make another one next year, when they do feel it is the right time. In general, making them isn't a very difficult task. We can make a whole lot more than we could even support. Why don't we make as many as we possibly can, and have something like a billion births every year? Placing much more value on conceptions that happen, while ignoring conceptions that could happen just as easily, seems like sentimentality. No single conception has any more importance than any other, and they happen too often already (recall how many people are never adopted), and there is plenty of potential to replace unwanted pregnancies with wanted pregnancy. I see no reason to place all-consuming importance on an unwanted pregnancy now, to the detriment of the a potential wanted pregnancy later; the potential lives are of equal value to themselves (the produced humans of either pregnancy would rather be alive than not), but one is of greater value to the parent(s).

On a more personal note, I believe that a person is more than just their genetics. A fetus is not more than just its genetics, so I don't view it as a person. It is, at least in some technical sense, a living human. However, the mother's needs, as she is a person, seem more important to me. Theoretically, I could make this argument that they aren't human even for a while after birth. However, it seems most fair to have explicitly defined rules that apply to everyone, and there needs to be some compromise, so I find the third trimester limit to be an acceptable balance.



Joe90
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 16,855
Location: Maidstone, UK

15 Nov 2018, 1:18 pm

I agree with abortion. It is kinder to abort an unwanted child before it has developed real thoughts and feelings and personality (which is the day it's born). Some women get raped, which causes an unwanted pregnancy, so what is so wrong with them choosing to abort? Other women get pregnant then find their partner is abusive or they split up or whatever and then the woman decides she doesn't want to bring up a baby on her own so she decides to abort before the baby is born, which is also fair enough. I've known people whose parents abandoned them at birth and they may have got brought up by someone else or in foster care, but often it messes them up emotionally and they turn into aggressive young adults. A colleague of mine accidentally got pregnant when she was just 18, and she didn't get an abortion, but after she had the baby she found she was an unfit mother who wasn't ready to be a parent and the dad didn't look after the baby at all. The girl turned to drugs to cope, which got the baby took away by social services, which made her drug addiction worse. She got a court order to stay away from the child, and although she's not on drugs now, she's become an emotional wreck with depression and anger issues. Her child is now in foster care, but she remembers her real mother and this will probably affect her emotionally later on when she's a teenager. So it's situations like this where it is kinder to not bring the child into the world in the first place, then nobody is hurt.

I mean, it's hard as f**k to adopt a child, yet any unstable person with issues can make baby after baby so easily, and it's those children that suffer.

Yep, I agree with abortion.


_________________
Female
Aged 29
On antidepressants
Diagnosed with AS, ADHD and anxiety disorder


XFilesGeek
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,346
Location: The Oort Cloud

15 Nov 2018, 8:49 pm

Mikah wrote:
Rather key distinction here. You can kill someone in self defense, if you have reasonable cause to believe your life is in imminent danger and the use of such force is deemed necessary, on property or not. Using your property is not a good enough reason, you'd be tried for murder.


Pregnancy is a direct threat to my health and well-being. I'm not legally or morally obligated to sacrifice my life and/or safety for anyone, especially not a zygote/embryo/fetus.

Quote:
These silly hypotheticals... Ok car example now. The car has been disassembled and its battery is now hooked up to someone's life support machine. You can't disconnect them just to retrieve your battery. That is murder in the course of retrieving your property, you are not allowed legally or morally to do that.


Aaaannddd this is an excellent example pf why I do not indulge "hypotheticals" while discussing abortion.

The fact remains that I do not grant the use of my organs to anyone, for any reason, without my consent, regardless of their developmental state.


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (moderator)


XFilesGeek
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,346
Location: The Oort Cloud

15 Nov 2018, 8:52 pm

beady wrote:
I've had three children and one spontaneous abortion.

I believe no person should be forced to sustain another against their will.
Figure out a way to sustain life independent of another person but even if you could, I still would believe you have no right to prevent me from removing my DNA from the embryo.

Pregnancy and childbirth often leave lfelong scars and/or damage even in the best of circumstances. We all know the USA most assuredly does not offer the best of circumstances since so many people have substandard healthcare or none at all.

Anyone that wants to force another human to have a baby should be forced to contribute x amount of dollars to raise that child to age 18 whether that child is put up for adoption or not. Put your money where your values lay.


:hail:


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (moderator)


Arganger
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2018
Age: 18
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,707
Location: Colorado

15 Nov 2018, 10:40 pm

I am not today in a reasonable enough mindset to argue, but I want to contribute this;


The testimony of someone who survived an abortion attempt, and faced long term damage from it including cerebral palsy.


_________________
Diagnosed autistic level 2, ODD, anxiety, dyspraxic, essential tremors, depression (Doubted), CAPD, hyper mobility syndrome
Suspected; PTSD (Treated, as my counselor did notice), possible PCOS, PMDD, Learning disabilities (Sure of it, unknown what they are), possibly something wrong with immune system (Sick about as much as I'm not) Possible EDS- hyper mobility type (Will be getting tested, suggested by doctor) dysautonomia


Tim_Tex
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jul 2004
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 45,616
Location: Houston, Texas

16 Nov 2018, 3:34 am

My only personal concern with abortion is:

Although I am approaching 40, I still hold out some hope of being a parent. I am worried I will meet someone who keeps telling me she wants kids, but gets an abortion behind my back.

From a political standpoint, I don’t think it should be banned, nor do I think Roe will be overturned.

When I mentioned saying pro- or anti-abortion instead of pro-life or pro-choice, I am referring to people who say they’re pro-life in regard to abortion, but have no contingency plan once the child is born, or who support the death penalty. Same with those who say they’re pro-choice, but deride those who choose to be parents and call them “stupid breeders”.


_________________
Who’s better at math than a robot? They’re made of math!


Uiteindelijk
Butterfly
Butterfly

Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 17

16 Nov 2018, 8:25 am

Arganger wrote:
I am not today in a reasonable enough mindset to argue, but I want to contribute this;


The testimony of someone who survived an abortion attempt, and faced long term damage from it including cerebral palsy.


Nothing that benefits many people should be banned because it fails a very small percentage of the time.

Her mom didn't want her but she got to live anyway; a life with cerebral palsy is better than no life. I don't see the fact that abortions can fail on occasion to be particularly relevant. Yes, her life is worse because of the abortion; ideally the failure would've been noticed and corrected. This seems like more sentimentality.

Tim_Tex wrote:
Although I am approaching 40, I still hold out some hope of being a parent. I am worried I will meet someone who keeps telling me she wants kids, but gets an abortion behind my back.


I really hope you can open up to being more trusting, and meet someone who inspires more trust.



Arganger
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2018
Age: 18
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,707
Location: Colorado

16 Nov 2018, 1:46 pm

Uiteindelijk wrote:
Arganger wrote:
I am not today in a reasonable enough mindset to argue, but I want to contribute this;


The testimony of someone who survived an abortion attempt, and faced long term damage from it including cerebral palsy.


Nothing that benefits many people should be banned because it fails a very small percentage of the time.

Her mom didn't want her but she got to live anyway; a life with cerebral palsy is better than no life. I don't see the fact that abortions can fail on occasion to be particularly relevant. Yes, her life is worse because of the abortion; ideally the failure would've been noticed and corrected. This seems like more sentimentality.

Tim_Tex wrote:
Although I am approaching 40, I still hold out some hope of being a parent. I am worried I will meet someone who keeps telling me she wants kids, but gets an abortion behind my back.


I really hope you can open up to being more trusting, and meet someone who inspires more trust.


By her own words the problem is not that she lived, she is glad and overjoyed that she is alive;
the problem is that there was an attempt on her life that was fully legal.
The problem is that she didn't matter and that she should of.

Her life inspires a lot of the worst case scenario ideas that pro choice people bring up;
She is disabled, she grew up in foster care, her birth mother hates her, and yet she is glad to be alive, and wants no other child to be killed like she almost was. She survived only by a stroke of luck.


_________________
Diagnosed autistic level 2, ODD, anxiety, dyspraxic, essential tremors, depression (Doubted), CAPD, hyper mobility syndrome
Suspected; PTSD (Treated, as my counselor did notice), possible PCOS, PMDD, Learning disabilities (Sure of it, unknown what they are), possibly something wrong with immune system (Sick about as much as I'm not) Possible EDS- hyper mobility type (Will be getting tested, suggested by doctor) dysautonomia