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aspiesavant
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16 Jan 2019, 10:28 pm

Gromit wrote:
The norm that I consider reasonable is that the person who makes a definite claim is the one who offers reason or evidence, either up front, or when asked. If I had flat out told you that you are wrong, it would have been up to me to search, and you would be right to call me out. In this case, I think not.


I try to back up a lot of statements with links to online sources or references to physical books.

It takes a lot of time, though, to provide a reference to every single statement that is to blatantly obvious to me but somehow does not ring true to you. So I try to be selective, as I don't have all the time in the world either.

Most people I discuss don't even bother to check the links, though. Some even refuse to check any source that is likely to contradict their biases. And that really, really doesn't encourage one to keep sourcing every single thing.

In fact, do you provide a source for every claim you make?

Gromit wrote:
For a claim that vague and general? I could spend my life on it, and still not know what you mean. I don't even know how broadly you define propaganda.


I could give you ample articles or videos to start with.

Or I could post them here or send them to you in a PM, as to avoid "spamming" this thread with off-topic information.

Just ask for it. Tell me what you want to know more about, and I'll give you some sources that support my perspective on that topic.

Gromit wrote:
So is it fair to say that historical inaccuracy bothers you more than historically accurate propaganda, and the combination more still?


It depends on the context.

IMO, historical inaccuracy should ALWAYS be avoided in non-fiction, but it's OK in fiction only if it actually improves the story being told. And I can appreciate good propaganda even if I don't agree with the message to some degree. But if it's overly blatant AND it kinda ruins the narrative of what could have been a great movie...

See above, and if I think you misinterpreted the evidence, wouldn't you at least want me to look at what you chose, rather than what I picked? Though I'll make an exception when your source is the Daily Mail.

Gromit wrote:
And I still have the same question. How do you go from disagreeing to concluding that what you disagree with must be propaganda?


Context.

If the whole "Cheddar man is Black" story was an isolated story, I would probably not have bothered to look for any agenda. But when the mainstream media is filled with "articles" pushing "diversity" in one way or another, it becomes hard to believe this was not just one more attempt to push that narrative.

Gromit wrote:
Perhaps we have different definitions of propaganda. What's yours?


I go with Wikipedia's definition :

Wikipedia wrote:
Propaganda is information that is not objective and is used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis or perception, or using loaded language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information that is presented.


Propaganda can consist of blatant lies. More often than not, however, it consists of a mixture or carefully selected truths, half-truths & distortions... which are swallowed much smoother than blatant lies!

Gromit wrote:
why is it propaganda that you keep going on about? And why specifically diversity?


Because all this "diversity" propaganda is turning woman against man, Blacks against White and its otherwise responsible for destabilizing society in a myriad of ways.

Gromit wrote:
Advertising is trying to convince you to buy stuff, with regard to truth only in so far as advertisers are constrained by law, and without any concern for whether it is in your interest or not. Persuasion entirely for the benefit of someone else, without concern for cost to you. That is my definition of propaganda. You don't object to any of that widespread propaganda. It's only "diversity propaganda" that gets your goat.


Actually... If it were up to me, corporate advertising would be illegal.

Gromit wrote:
What is the cost to you? And do you realise that you may benefit from it?


I see no benefits from a society where communities are fractured, single parent families are the norm, race hatred is everywhere and everyone is on some kind of substance (either illegal or prescribed) to deal with the mess their life has become.

That is precisely what the plutocracy want to achieve with their "diversity" propaganda. They want a divided population, where every "identity" group fights every other group, ignoring the fat cats who're really running the show.

Gromit wrote:
If lynching becomes fashionable again, do you really think that when the lynch mobs run out of ethnic and sexual minorities, they'll forget about us weirdoes?


There's so many false assumptions underlying that statement I don't even know where to begin to respond to that...



Daniel89
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20 Jan 2019, 9:15 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

By voting in governments that favoured immigration, yes actually they were asked. Repeatedly.

Largely because most "expats" in Cambodia don't have much reason to make that claim, it would also vary depending on context. Privilege was likely a factor in why the local cops didn't care when my brother was the victim of a hit and run there, but in many other contexts he would have no reason to suggest that it exists. When you look around an office and know half of the people in the room didn't grow up with toilet in the house or electricity it makes one a little slower to use that term.


We have a political duopoly here in the UK and most places locally have a monopoly, the two largest parties support mass immigration and multiculturalism.


You're always free to start a pro-xenophobia political party, but the currently existing ones don't do so well. I stand by my previous comment since your rebuttal fails to rebut.


How is it Xenophobia? Smaller parties don't do well because we have a rigged system.



Daniel89
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20 Jan 2019, 9:16 am

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
A mixed race person can be British but the child of two Africans can not be British.


Wow, that's pretty racist. I'm surprised to see someone say something so blatantly anti-black here. How is that allowed?


How is it racist or anti black? Its only racist if you think being British makes you superior to being Nigerian, I don't.



Daniel89
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20 Jan 2019, 9:19 am

Gromit wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
A mixed race person can be British but the child of two Africans can not be British. If I was born in China I wouldn't be Chinese.

So to you, being British or Chinese is more genetic than cultural? How about German versus Austrian? I doubt that nation states are that genetically distinct.

Daniel89 wrote:
The Normans were Invaders and we need to take our land back from their descendants.

That's at least consistent, but you'll have a hard time finding anyone in Britain without any Norman ancestors. How do you know you are not a descendant of a Norman? Those Normans did put themselves about quite a bit. Will you expel yourself if you find you have Norman ancestry? To where? Brittany, or all the way back to Scandinavia? You could go back to a still earlier time, and declare all Indo-Europeans invaders, and kick their descendants out of Europe. That would be you and me, both. Do you think India or Pakistan would welcome us?

And if being mixed race doesn't disqualify someone, why would a Norman ancestor from 40 generations ago?


Boudicca did not speak a word of English, had never drank a cup or tea or ate fish and chips, yet she was British.

I may have some Norman ancestry, I do have French and Italian ancestry and possibly some distant African. My ancestors have been on Britain for thousands of years that is what makes me British.



Daniel89
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20 Jan 2019, 9:22 am

Gromit wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
At no point were British people asked if they wanted to become a multicultural country, the government forced it upon us.

Immigration happened long before there was a single government. You should have a look at "Bloody Foreigners" by Robert Winder:
Quote:
Immigration is one of the most important stories of modern British life, yet it has been happening since Caesar first landed in 53 BC. Ever since the first Roman, Saxon, Jute and Dane leaped off a boat we have been a mongrel nation. Our roots are a tangled web. From Huguenot weavers fleeing French Catholic persecution in the 18th century to South African dentists to Indian shopkeepers; from Jews in York in the 12th century (who had to wear a yellow star to distinguish them and who were shamefully expelled by Edward I in 1272) to the Jamaican who came on board the Windrush in 1947. The first Indian MP was elected in 1892, Walter Tull, the first black football player played (for Spurs and Northampton) before WW1 (and died heroically fighting for the allies in the last months of the war); in 1768 there were 20,000 black people in London (out of a population of 600,000 - a similar percentage to today). The 19th century brought huge numbers of Italians, Irish, Jews (from Russia and Poland mainly), Germans and Poles.


Daniel89 wrote:
Its Public knowledge that the BBC wanted to change the sex of the Doctor.

That's sounds a lot like "It is well known that Saddam Hussein has Weapons of Mass Destruction". It is not evidence. Anyone can claim that anything is public knowledge.

Daniel89 wrote:
A cultural Icon is just a legendary person essentially. Jack the Ripper and Vlad in impaler are cultural icons.

So would you be upset if a movie portrayed Jack the Ripper as Indian?

Also, the Bond movies had a Lotus that was both a fully functional sports car and a fully functional submarine, lasers in orbit more powerful than anything that flies even today, decades later, but the thing you find most unrealistic is that the son of a Scottish aristocrat and a Swiss mother could look like Idris Elba?

Daniel89 wrote:
Most British DNA goes back to Ice aged tribes, these were the true Britons.

So I was wrong about the Celts. You mean Cheddar Man: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/02/scientists-get-their-first-look-cheddar-man-one-england-s-oldest-modern-humans. You do know Cheddar Man was black?
Image

So if Idris Elba gets some blue contact lenses, will he be Bond?



Invasion is not immigration.

The Ancestors of Brits may have been darker yes but if you go back far enough they were fish too.



funeralxempire
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20 Jan 2019, 3:04 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

By voting in governments that favoured immigration, yes actually they were asked. Repeatedly.

Largely because most "expats" in Cambodia don't have much reason to make that claim, it would also vary depending on context. Privilege was likely a factor in why the local cops didn't care when my brother was the victim of a hit and run there, but in many other contexts he would have no reason to suggest that it exists. When you look around an office and know half of the people in the room didn't grow up with toilet in the house or electricity it makes one a little slower to use that term.


We have a political duopoly here in the UK and most places locally have a monopoly, the two largest parties support mass immigration and multiculturalism.


You're always free to start a pro-xenophobia political party, but the currently existing ones don't do so well. I stand by my previous comment since your rebuttal fails to rebut.


How is it Xenophobia? Smaller parties don't do well because we have a rigged system.


Because you're suggesting that immigrants can't possibly ever actually be a part of the culture they've chosen to join. I'm not sure if you're playing dumb or if you really don't comprehend the words you post. :|

Further, who said anything about invasion? Just because you chose to use certain terms for rhetorical effect doesn't mean that they're actually a reason description of what's actually occurring. Repeating these terms over and over and complaining that others won't adopt them is just the political correctness the nationalist/reactionary far-right is known for these days.


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20 Jan 2019, 3:09 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Because you're suggesting that immigrants can't possibly ever actually be a part of the culture they've chosen to join. I'm not sure if you're playing dumb or if you really don't comprehend the words you post. :|

Further, who said anything about invasion? Just because you chose to use certain terms for rhetorical effect doesn't mean that they're actually a reason description of what's actually occurring. Repeating these terms over and over and complaining that others won't adopt them is just the political correctness the nationalist/reactionary far-right is known for these days.


Immigrants can become part of British culture. They cannot become Britons.



funeralxempire
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20 Jan 2019, 3:19 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Because you're suggesting that immigrants can't possibly ever actually be a part of the culture they've chosen to join. I'm not sure if you're playing dumb or if you really don't comprehend the words you post. :|

Further, who said anything about invasion? Just because you chose to use certain terms for rhetorical effect doesn't mean that they're actually a reason description of what's actually occurring. Repeating these terms over and over and complaining that others won't adopt them is just the political correctness the nationalist/reactionary far-right is known for these days.


Immigrants can become part of British culture. They cannot become Britons.


Not ethnically, but to suggest they can't become Britons in the sense of national identity is exactly what I was talking about.


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Daniel89
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20 Jan 2019, 3:28 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Because you're suggesting that immigrants can't possibly ever actually be a part of the culture they've chosen to join. I'm not sure if you're playing dumb or if you really don't comprehend the words you post. :|

Further, who said anything about invasion? Just because you chose to use certain terms for rhetorical effect doesn't mean that they're actually a reason description of what's actually occurring. Repeating these terms over and over and complaining that others won't adopt them is just the political correctness the nationalist/reactionary far-right is known for these days.


Immigrants can become part of British culture. They cannot become Britons.


Not ethnically, but to suggest they can't become Britons in the sense of national identity is exactly what I was talking about.


Sure they can have a national identity but that doesn't make them as British as a Briton.



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20 Jan 2019, 4:52 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Because you're suggesting that immigrants can't possibly ever actually be a part of the culture they've chosen to join. I'm not sure if you're playing dumb or if you really don't comprehend the words you post. :|

Further, who said anything about invasion? Just because you chose to use certain terms for rhetorical effect doesn't mean that they're actually a reason description of what's actually occurring. Repeating these terms over and over and complaining that others won't adopt them is just the political correctness the nationalist/reactionary far-right is known for these days.


Immigrants can become part of British culture. They cannot become Britons.


Not ethnically, but to suggest they can't become Britons in the sense of national identity is exactly what I was talking about.


Sure they can have a national identity but that doesn't make them as British as a Briton.


Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Iris ... themselves
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Germ ... he_Germans

History disagrees that assimilated minorities can't become as or more x than the x.


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Daniel89
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20 Jan 2019, 4:57 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Because you're suggesting that immigrants can't possibly ever actually be a part of the culture they've chosen to join. I'm not sure if you're playing dumb or if you really don't comprehend the words you post. :|

Further, who said anything about invasion? Just because you chose to use certain terms for rhetorical effect doesn't mean that they're actually a reason description of what's actually occurring. Repeating these terms over and over and complaining that others won't adopt them is just the political correctness the nationalist/reactionary far-right is known for these days.


Immigrants can become part of British culture. They cannot become Britons.


Not ethnically, but to suggest they can't become Britons in the sense of national identity is exactly what I was talking about.


Sure they can have a national identity but that doesn't make them as British as a Briton.


Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Iris ... themselves
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Germ ... he_Germans

History disagrees that assimilated minorities can't become as or more x than the x.


You have just made my argument for me.
The idea that the children of Chinese Immigrants can be considered more British than me because they speak with an RP accent, drink tea and love the Queen.

That is what angers me about all this.



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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20 Jan 2019, 6:05 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Because you're suggesting that immigrants can't possibly ever actually be a part of the culture they've chosen to join. I'm not sure if you're playing dumb or if you really don't comprehend the words you post. :|

Further, who said anything about invasion? Just because you chose to use certain terms for rhetorical effect doesn't mean that they're actually a reason description of what's actually occurring. Repeating these terms over and over and complaining that others won't adopt them is just the political correctness the nationalist/reactionary far-right is known for these days.


Immigrants can become part of British culture. They cannot become Britons.


Not ethnically, but to suggest they can't become Britons in the sense of national identity is exactly what I was talking about.


Sure they can have a national identity but that doesn't make them as British as a Briton.


Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Iris ... themselves
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Germ ... he_Germans

History disagrees that assimilated minorities can't become as or more x than the x.


You have just made my argument for me.
The idea that the children of Chinese Immigrants can be considered more British than me because they speak with an RP accent, drink tea and love the Queen.

That is what angers me about all this.


And there it is. You're angry because if a child of Chinese immigrants can be just as British as you are, you're not longer special and above them. If they are just as British as you, you have to acknowledge them as equals and that makes you angry.

White racist anger is always from this root. What's that saying about the removal of privilege feeling like oppression to those with privilege? That's you buddy, thinking you losing the upper hand over immigrants is you being mistreated when really it's just your society equalizing. You don't get to be better than others anymore just because your ancestors are more "white" than the immigrants that make you so angry. That's all that is, it's very transparent.



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20 Jan 2019, 6:21 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

And there it is. You're angry because if a child of Chinese immigrants can be just as British as you are, you're not longer special and above them. If they are just as British as you, you have to acknowledge them as equals and that makes you angry.

White racist anger is always from this root. What's that saying about the removal of privilege feeling like oppression to those with privilege? That's you buddy, thinking you losing the upper hand over immigrants is you being mistreated when really it's just your society equalizing. You don't get to be better than others anymore just because your ancestors are more "white" than the immigrants that make you so angry. That's all that is, it's very transparent.


Its not a privilege to be a Briton in Britain its literally my birth right.

Being white does not make me superior to a Chinese person whether they live in China or Britain, Being ethnically British does make me more British than an Ethnic Chinese person though.



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20 Jan 2019, 6:24 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

And there it is. You're angry because if a child of Chinese immigrants can be just as British as you are, you're not longer special and above them. If they are just as British as you, you have to acknowledge them as equals and that makes you angry.

White racist anger is always from this root. What's that saying about the removal of privilege feeling like oppression to those with privilege? That's you buddy, thinking you losing the upper hand over immigrants is you being mistreated when really it's just your society equalizing. You don't get to be better than others anymore just because your ancestors are more "white" than the immigrants that make you so angry. That's all that is, it's very transparent.


Its not a privilege to be a Briton in Britain its literally my birth right.

Being white does not make me superior to a Chinese person whether they live in China or Britain, Being ethnically British does make me more British than an Ethnic Chinese person though.


However you need to resolve your superiority to slake that anger--you do you boo, as they say. Just remember we can all see through it clear as day.



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20 Jan 2019, 6:29 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

However you need to resolve your superiority to slake that anger--you do you boo, as they say. Just remember we can all see through it clear as day.


Where have I mentioned superiority?



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20 Jan 2019, 6:45 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

However you need to resolve your superiority to slake that anger--you do you boo, as they say. Just remember we can all see through it clear as day.


Where have I mentioned superiority?


If you didn't feel deep inside that being "ethnically British" makes you better than those who aren't, it wouldn't make you angry to suggest that people of other ethnicities can be just as British as you. It's that anger that gives it away. If you didn't need to feel superior you wouldn't care so much about Chinese immigrants "infringing" on your British-ness.