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shlaifu
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10 Nov 2018, 10:36 pm

I'd say the liberal mainstream, the capitalist mechanics feeding off the liberal mainstream AND the alt-right is ruining movies.

Also netflix, the internet in general, and red dead redemption 2.

Movies in theatres are much more a streamlined commercial product than they ever were, and they are geared towards whatever target demographic the financiers decide it should be geared at. The star wars franchise came from an auteur filmmaker, but has become a cash cow product that needs milking.
These kind of films are much too big an investment to have any artistic whimsy.
But of course, you can't make everyone happy.
So the production company needs to decide whom to disgruntle.
Intolerant nerds? - sounds like a niche audience our target demographic wouldn't want to identify with... If those are all the people who hate your film: great.
If you made s film that pissrs off intolerant nerds, you made sure your film is 'progressive'
You wouldn't want to piss off all women, or all chinese people. Much too big an audience to loose.
The other thing is: who has so far not been interested in ghost busters or star wars? Where could you gain the most new followers? Right. The boys are going to watch it for the brand name anyway. Even the angry nerds.

What is ruining films is that these marketing considerations are real, and they factor into the storytelling. Advertising strategists are writing these films as much as hired writers.
Not auteurs, like George Lucas once was.
Have you watched some films from the seventies lately? Are you aware just how weird star wars is on that context?


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RetroGamer87
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11 Nov 2018, 8:27 am

shlaifu wrote:
What is ruining films is that these marketing considerations are real, and they factor into the storytelling. Advertising strategists are writing these films as much as hired writers.
Not auteurs, like George Lucas once was.
Have you watched some films from the seventies lately? Are you aware just how weird star wars is on that context?



Auteurs aren't immune from marketing. George Lucas factored in marketing too. The Return of the Jedi was originally supposed to take place on Kashyyyk. It was to feature the enslaved wookies rebelling against the empire. Then George Lucas, who had already gotten rich off of the merchandising decided that huge fierce creatures who pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose at Dejarik wouldn't be good for the merchandising so he created the cute and cuddly (and merchandisable) Ewoks who live on the fun and fantastic forest moon of Endor (which got merchandised into two movies and a cartoon series). The Return of the Jedi on Kashyyyk could have been so much more badass but George Lucas figured it would be bad for marketing his merchandise.


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shlaifu
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11 Nov 2018, 8:56 am

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Auteurs aren't immune from marketing. George Lucas factored in marketing too. The Return of the Jedi was originally supposed to take place on Kashyyyk. It was to feature the enslaved wookies rebelling against the empire. Then George Lucas, who had already gotten rich off of the merchandising decided that huge fierce creatures who pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose at Dejarik wouldn't be good for the merchandising so he created the cute and cuddly (and merchandisable) Ewoks who live on the fun and fantastic forest moon of Endor (which got merchandised into two movies and a cartoon series). The Return of the Jedi on Kashyyyk could have been so much more badass but George Lucas figured it would be bad for marketing his merchandise.


that's why I wrote "Not auteurs, like George Lucas once was."
success is a vicious circle. ... I mean ... THX 1138 is so much more what we think of as auteur cinema, but the first star wars feels incredibly daring in the context of a period in cinema where THX is ... way more normal than it would be today. - except, of course, you have your "beyond the black rainbow"-indie-scifi, which is being hailed as a great achievement, they don't make 'em like that anymore and so on... sadly, it wasn't a great film.

it's a difficult interaction between market forces and creative forces, but lately, you get the feeling that market forces have won out, and creative achivements are rare....
but of course, culture has also moved on, so, if you're highly creative, visual, understand storytelling you might be better off working in UX design or as CEO of a tech start-up. Filmmaking is a niche market for a niche audience. It's not the cultural force it oncve was. Just like literary fiction is not the cultural force it was in the 19th century.
there just hasn't been this one successor, like film was to literature. There are many. Youtube, influencers, video games, etc. there are many variations of storytelling, that are all easier to consume than a two hour film, in the same way that a two hor film was easier to consume than a 500-page novel.
and of course, that switch from films to youtube comes with a loss of complexity - but then, in 2 hours, I can consume 8 different apporaches to the same story... I can Rashomon everything, thanks to these new forms, so actually, I can get more complexity ina similar amount of time, and it's easier to consume, too.

I miss movies... they don't make 'em like they used to.


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BTDT
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11 Nov 2018, 9:00 am

I'm sure they didn't like Crazy Rich Asians but it made a ton of money anyway!

Domestic gross of 173 million on a production budget of just 30 million!

It has a lot of cultural nuances that you normally don't find in mainstream Hollywood films. They are like "Easter eggs" in that they don't get in the way of the story if you miss them, but add to the experience if you can pick them out.



SabbraCadabra
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11 Nov 2018, 9:22 am

shlaifu wrote:
I miss movies... they don't make 'em like they used to.

I don't miss movies at all, I still have so many I've yet to watch.

I do miss when they used to have older movies on Netflix and Hulu though. There were a lot of films that I wanted to see, but didn't really want to try to find and purchase (especially the pricier ones). I didn't start paying for Hulu until after they had gotten rid of The Criterion Collection =/ I was really excited about that, but it wasn't available for free.


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The_Walrus
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11 Nov 2018, 11:01 am

I think these people are pretty irrelevant. They try review bombing, but the studios don't pay them much attention.

Usually.

Let's wait until Guardians of the Galaxy 3 comes out. That's a film they could genuinely have ruined.

I am not interested in the Ghostbusters franchise. I'm not especially interested in Star Wars either, although I have seen three of the last four films. I thought The Last Jedi was a deeply flawed film, but the notion that it is pushing some sort of "SJW agenda" is utterly bamboozling.

(On the other hand, Black Panther does push an alt-right agenda - utterly infuriating! At least T'Challa rejects parts of it at the end)



RetroGamer87
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11 Nov 2018, 3:42 pm

shlaifu wrote:
that's why I wrote "Not auteurs, like George Lucas once was."
success is a vicious circle. ... I mean ... THX 1138 is so much more what we think of as auteur cinema, but the first star wars feels incredibly daring in the context of a period in cinema where THX is ... way more normal than it would be today.

True but the Return of the Jedi isn't a recent movie. It's a part of the original trilogy. Maybe you're right and his best days were when he was a young unknown making THX 1138 and American Graffiti. Perhaps his most famous work destroyed his best qualities.

Most people say the prequel trilogy is when George Lucas went dotty but it was the original trilogy that did it. Even A New Hope went Crazy with the merchandising. Remember the Early Bird Certificate Package?

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RetroGamer87
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11 Nov 2018, 3:44 pm

BTDT wrote:
It has a lot of cultural nuances that you normally don't find in mainstream Hollywood films. They are like "Easter eggs" in that they don't get in the way of the story if you miss them, but add to the experience if you can pick them out.

Which ones? Is there a list?


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Pepe
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11 Nov 2018, 4:39 pm

The_Blonde_Alien wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I know this thread looks like it belongs to the "Television, Film, and Video" section of WP but this is mostly about the alt-right/far-right YouTube personalities (Sargon of Akkad, Armored Skeptic, Blaire White, Computing Forever, ect.) taking movies way out of context and its behavior on the internet overall. This is not about movies.

I feel like movies such as Ghostbusters 2016 and Star Wars: the Last Jedi aren't really "Bad" as many far-right personalities would have you believe, instead I feel like they have taken them so far out of context that it results in a "backlash" that in reality is a byproduct of prejudice.

I've watched both movies, and trust me they aren't the stinkers that they are claimed to be. Here's a my abbreviated opinions on each:

Ghostbusters 2016: It's good reboot. It's a shame that it isn't "Ghostbusters 2" like many fans wanted but as a reboot alone it stands out as a decent, well made comedy film that, when you take your head out of politics, you come to appreciate its humor more often. I'd say if you haven't watched the movie, watch it without watching any of the so-called "reviews" (Spoiler alert: they're actually far-right political rhetoric and propaganda, complete with mansplaining men who whine just as much as the mythical "Social Justice Warrior" that they keep complaining about so darn often!) and you are sure to have a fine time.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi - I'll admit, the movie has flaws...major flaws, and it has nothing to do with it having a "SJW agenda". Instead it has major issues with the resolutions to the many mysteries left behind by J.J. Abraham's in The Force Awakens such as:

1. The revelation behind Rey's parents is disappointing to say the least

2. Snoke is Killed off before any character development could possibly be done to him, killing the mystery behind him prematurely (and no, any comic books, books or video games don't make up for the Ryan Johnson and his writer's laziness with Snoke. The Star Wars prequels did this better, giving Darth Maul a full story arc in the Clone Wars TV series in addition to more world-building.)

Despite all these major issues I liked the film; it was grim, dark, action-packed and full with top-notch acting and special effects, just like Star Wars always ways. A huge improvement over The Force Awakens's minimalist and mystery-driven approach.

Movies make up and influence our culture in various ways. That said, do you think these alt-right YouTube Personalities are a bad influence to movies and society as a whole? Should they be stopped? If so how?

Please leave a reply to let me know.


Don't know...
Don't care about Star Wars...

I watched the first one and thought the philosophical content was so threadbare that I stopped watching the franchise altogether...
Special effects were great but not enough to hold my interest even when I was young and dumb...

The only helpful advice I got was: "May the force be with you..."
Very pertinent when one is constipated... :mrgreen:

The reason I am replying to your post is because I find your analysis very impressive... :wink:
"Live long and prosper..."
D'oh!
Wrong franchise... :mrgreen:


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12 Nov 2018, 12:51 am

None of those people are alt right or far right what so ever.

The alt right is tiny and has no influence on media. Hollywood has a very left wing bias. Personally I want more Apolitical films and TV.



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12 Nov 2018, 6:05 am

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/8 ... ie-mahjong
They packed a ton of stuff in the Mah Jong scene.

Peik Lin accepting the invitation to the big party is an example of proper Chinese social custom.

Well worth watching a few times if you have a Chinese GF.



Tim_Tex
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12 Nov 2018, 2:39 pm

I am aware that Hollywood is very liberal (Broadway even more so), but I don't think the right is ruining movies.


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BaronHarkonnen85
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12 Nov 2018, 4:53 pm

The Last Jedi was God-awful. I didn't see Ghostbusters (because it looked God-awful).

It doesn't really matter what one's politics are, a bad movie is bad. Many people, generally left-winged to right-winged, hated the movie.

I'm not going to call myself a "superfan" or anything, but I've liked Star Wars ever since I was a kid. I had high hopes for these movies. Alas, the Last Jedi was terrible, just terrible.


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The_Blonde_Alien
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22 Nov 2018, 10:27 pm

BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:
The Last Jedi was God-awful. I didn't see Ghostbusters (because it looked God-awful).

It doesn't really matter what one's politics are, a bad movie is bad. Many people, generally left-winged to right-winged, hated the movie.

I'm not going to call myself a "superfan" or anything, but I've liked Star Wars ever since I was a kid. I had high hopes for these movies. Alas, the Last Jedi was terrible, just terrible.


Judging by most of the replies I got here, it seems like the writing is what killed Star Wars: the Last Jedi. I couldn't agree with that point any more than I do now. It seems like Ryan Johnson and the writes got real lazy and decided to do the least amount of effort. 'After all, why bother write a good Star Wars story if I'm gonna get a fat paycheck?' is what they probably told themselves when they wrote The Last Jedi. Basically this part of Nostalgia Critic's review of Adam Sandler's Pixels movie sums the Last Jedi's problems very well:



Overall I think the Last Jedi was slightly good film, but not good enough to respect the Star Wars original trilogy's legacy. I honestly feel like the reason The Last Jedi was ruined for me was because of YouTubers like World Class Bullshitters started spouting out some alt-right/far-right rhetoric. Here are some examples here:

**TRIGGER WARNING: offensive anti-liberal commentary, misogyny and hate are likely to be found in the following videos**

Mod edit: thanks for the warning, videos removed! If it breaks WP rules then please avoid linking it.


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CockneyRebel
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22 Nov 2018, 11:24 pm

I think that they are ruining movies. Most movies are shoot them up, blood and gore. I remember the days of Austin Powers, Liar Liar and Spice World. Movies were much better back in those days in my opinion. I can't think of any movies that I've wanted to see in the past five years.


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