Trump may be an arrogant jerk, but I like it. Actions matter

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Pyromanic
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03 Jan 2019, 2:57 am

Everybody seems to be obsessed about Donald Trump's character traits more than they care about what he's actually got done. All over the place I see people ranting and raving about his bone spur diagnoses, or Stormy Daniels, or the false Russia conspiracy, or how he's an arrogant as*hole. Well, I'll second that last one but you know what? I kinda like Trump's way of communication. If you'd listen to one of his rally speeches without going into it all uptight and angry you'd see that he's more of a comedian than anything, and the arrogance is just him making light of his enemies because when your hater count is this vast, what else really could one do? Reason with them? Now, we know none of you out there who hate the man will ever change your minds on him if he makes any effort short of conceding his values for yours, so I think it's great that he says to hell with the politics of compromise and ignores what his opposition wants because if he was compromising like others have been he'd never get anything done.

Believe it or not, America under Trump hasn't actually been so bad... last time I checked the economy is improving under Trump and you can scream Obama did it all you want but at this point the man deserves some credit if anything for overseeing further improvements. You really can't say that Trump has been bad on economy, even if you have gripes it would be hard to argue he has been economically harmful to America. He got us out of some bad agreements with other countries that we never needed to go along with in the first place. They are not America, there is no world law dictating we must continue bad agreements if they are hurting our economy and kudos to Trump for pulling out of them. The world has this expectation that America should just do whatever they want us to do and if we don't we are assholes. No, they are the assholes for feeling entitled to our support and cooperation in their own attempts at self advancement. Trump doesn't care, and that's a good thing. So he offends the people in the countries using us for profit. So what, maybe they should work on themselves without us as a crutch. Which brings me to immigration- nobody is entitled to come here legally, and they especially aren't entitled to come here illegally. Enforcing laws that are already there is not a human rights violation, it's sensible. Maybe people should have more respect for the process. Oh, and we also do not owe Syrian refugees (or any other refugee) asylum if it will ultimately hurt us. It's debatable but if we say no that should be respected. I'd go as far as to say that if Trump pulled out of the UN for them laughing at him, it would be fine because they should learn some respect even to presidents they don't like.

People like to say that the Trump foreign policy is bad because he does not bend over backward to please our "allies". The entitlement these "allies" feel to the suckling of our teet for their economy is more of a symbioses than an alliance, they don't even pay for the military that we basically lend them, and I am so happy that Trump ordered to withdraw from Syria. That was a great move that most people should be happy with and if not, maybe you need to sort your priorities. What happened to liberals being AGAINST America acting as world police? It's like all you have to do is connect human rights to something and all of a sudden liberals are all for it, incidentally this also means violating free speech (*cough* antifa *cough*). I can't even have a reasonable discussion with people on the left because they are either temperamental or snide/snarky, and if somebody gets snappy or snarky with me during what should be an objective discussion (not an insult competition) then I will feel no need to show them any respect in return. I speak my opinions bluntly but when it comes down to it I am all for peaceful discussions, it's one of my favorite activities. Another example of the Trump hate being ridiculous is the way they downplay the historic progress with North Korea as "sucking up to a dictator". Something tells me Obama would be spoken of much differently if he did the same thing but since it's Trump every achievement must be downplayed. So you want to talk human rights? How about the prison system reform bill he just passed? You know, the one the liberals have been pushing for, for a long time at that? Obama didn't pass it, Trump did.

The riots people are having over Trump are not proportional to what is actually going on under Trump. All the big points against him are just irrelevant character attacks, and yet for every "ist" name he is called who is improving employment for women, African Americans, hispanics, ect.? Who just passed a criminal justice reform bill? Trump is not passing bills or policies that are discriminatory or harmful to minority groups and yet people will still claim that he is somehow a terrible danger to these groups. It's pitiful, really. If anything these activists are more harmful to the groups they are representing than any WORD coming out of Donald Trump's mouth because they make themselves look like wild, angry, rabid animals who can't handle political disagreements in a civil or reasonable way. The fact is Trump's policies and actions aren't living down to the minority hell on earth the left seems to think his tenure has been. Looks like political propaganda to me.

At some point somebody needs to say... you know what? Donald Trump is a douchebag, and an arrogant one. But you know what? I love his arrogant douchiness.

I will be that guy.


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LoveNotHate
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03 Jan 2019, 3:43 am

There are a lot of sound reasons why someone may hate TRUMP.

However, mostly what I see are people parroting, "ORANGE MAN BAD".


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ASPartOfMe
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03 Jan 2019, 3:56 am

His personality matters because

1. It does obscure debate on policy matters

2. It does change the opponents from opposition to enemies and this does lead to in the short term more violent counter reactions and more worrisome is what I fear is going to happen in the long term. The midterms is a strong indication that there might be a severe backlash that will make “conservatives” a minority. In that situation adaptations of harmful policies will be the least of our problems. The “left” would have been “proven right” that Trumpians and conservatives in general are old white men standing in the way of an inevitable “progressive” future. If you think things are too politically correct, too identity politics oriented and censorious now just wait.

These regressive left/SJW thinking elements have always been here and they were increasing in influence before Trump but his personality has sped up thier infestation of mainstream politics and trendy influential companies.

3. The President saying “grab them by the p****”, bullying and talking trash does encouage others to act out in similar ways.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 03 Jan 2019, 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

TW1ZTY
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03 Jan 2019, 5:35 am

I hate him because he's encouraging racism, sexism, homophobia, and other forms of hate in the US. As a minority myself why the f**k should I support a president like that? And why the f**k do his supporters continue to deny that he's a bigot when he clearly states how he feels about Mexicans, Muslims, and Women on TV all the time?



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03 Jan 2019, 7:17 am

I think the left needs to develop how it attacks Trump. It's not a matter of them being deranged in attacking Trump but rather prominent Democratic leaders don't know the lines of argument that resonate with voters. I might create a list actually.

Effective issues to attack Trump on:


*Healthcare
*Yemen
*Inhumane Immigration policies: This refers not so much to border control policies but the extent he is willing to go to by separating children.
*Tax breaks to corporations
*Gutting of Environmental Regulations

Ineffective issues to attack Trump on:

*Russiagate
*Tax Returns
*Civility
*Trivial Gaffes
*Stormy Daniels
*Syria
*Anything related to political correctness

Some issues like racism and sexism are more nuanced as to whether or not they are good areas to attack Trump on. They can be but only if managed well. And Democrats need to understand how the average American perceives them.

Part of the effectiveness of Trump's dog whistles is that they appear to be in the line of plausible deniability. In which he can claim that he wasn't being racist and that the overly politically correct left is misconstructing his words. What the left needs to do is identify the dog whistle for what it is, condemn it and explain firstly why it was a dog whistle and secondly why it was wrong. But do not go overboard with such condemnation so that it appears you are launching unsubstantiated personal attacks or criticizing their supporters. People are not necessarily gonna understand why these dog whistles are bad. So it may be pragmatic for left-wing leaders to act more restrained than they would like to be. Because guess what when you call Trump a sexist #### the American public is not with you they may even think you're unhinged. Even if you may be right.

I know sexism is a similar issue to racism here. But I don't know where to draw the line in strongly countering Trump's sexism or sounding more restrained. It is a complicated issue to navigate. Because pointing out Trump's sexism has both served to advance social movements, encourage thousands of women and generate enthusiasm but it has also generated anger, tension, distrust and disbelief.



Pyromanic
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03 Jan 2019, 10:56 am

I have been following Trump and watching his speeches much more closely than most people. I watched his every speech during the campaign, and try to watch most now. I see no indication that he is the hateful racist people are accusing him to be.


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03 Jan 2019, 11:01 am

Pyromanic wrote:
I have been following Trump and watching his speeches much more closely than most people. I watched his every speech during the campaign, and try to watch most now. I see no indication that he is the hateful racist people are accusing him to be.

So basically you only listen to what you want to hear come out of his mouth and you just ignore everything else.



Shahunshah
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03 Jan 2019, 11:53 am

Pyromanic wrote:
I have been following Trump and watching his speeches much more closely than most people. I watched his every speech during the campaign, and try to watch most now. I see no indication that he is the hateful racist people are accusing him to be.

I think you have to look at his announcement speech in particular. I doubt you need me of all people to say this, but Trump said Mexican illegal immigrants, "They are bringing drugs, they are bringing crime, they are rapists." When he said that he used such a broad generalization that appeared to apply to most illegal immigrants crossing the border.

He didn't try temper his language whatsoever by instead saying that "Some Illegal immigrants pose safety risks." He simply described illegal immigrants crossing the border then jumped to labeling them, criminals. And that is the dog whistle in this context. And yes what Trump said was racist.

And yes I know he said, "Some are good people." But language is important and the word some implies that only a small amount are good individuals.

I don't expect you to concede this point. I certainly didn't a while back when I was less inclined to call out Trump's racist rhetoric. But I say this so that you can see our side.

Believe it or not, I don't enjoy discussing Trump's dog whistles and racist rhetoric. To me, it is basically wallowing in the dirt and playing the game his most ardent and rigid supporters want us to play.



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03 Jan 2019, 12:04 pm

And lastly liberals particular far left activists even extremists aren't all that dumb. In recent years we have become more in tune with the tactics and methods of allot of their political opponents.

Allot of my more radical counterparts aren't even that fragile and whiny. They, by and large, despise the political right, don't care for free speech and see politics as war. If you confronted one of those people Pyromaniac they wouldn't melt down in front your eyes, they just regard you as the enemy and wouldn't care for a single word you would say.



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03 Jan 2019, 12:29 pm

Pyromanic wrote:
I have been following Trump and watching his speeches much more closely than most people. I watched his every speech during the campaign, and try to watch most now. I see no indication that he is the hateful racist people are accusing him to be.


You are correct in saying Trump has not said anything openly racist like "blacks are by nature criminals and lazy". One can not interpret speeches by politicians in an autistic literal way. They are NT's speaking to other NT's so they use code words. Actual white supremacists/nationalists have often said he is with us that is something that should not be ignored. Many non SJW's even those that support his policies have said he is appealing to bigots. He said a certain Judge cannot judge him fairly because he is of Mexican descent. The is an openly bigoted statement.

Is he a racist? I don't know but there are many many indications that he is appealing to them and that is all that matters.


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Pyromanic
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03 Jan 2019, 12:50 pm

Shahunshah wrote:
Pyromanic wrote:
I have been following Trump and watching his speeches much more closely than most people. I watched his every speech during the campaign, and try to watch most now. I see no indication that he is the hateful racist people are accusing him to be.

I think you have to look at his announcement speech in particular. I doubt you need me of all people to say this, but Trump said Mexican illegal immigrants, "They are bringing drugs, they are bringing crime, they are rapists." When he said that he used such a broad generalization that appeared to apply to most illegal immigrants crossing the border.

He didn't try temper his language whatsoever by instead saying that "Some Illegal immigrants pose safety risks." He simply described illegal immigrants crossing the border then jumped to labeling them, criminals. And that is the dog whistle in this context. And yes what Trump said was racist.

And yes I know he said, "Some are good people." But language is important and the word some implies that only a small amount are good individuals.

I don't expect you to concede this point. I certainly didn't a while back when I was less inclined to call out Trump's racist rhetoric. But I say this so that you can see our side.

Believe it or not, I don't enjoy discussing Trump's dog whistles and racist rhetoric. To me, it is basically wallowing in the dirt and playing the game his most ardent and rigid supporters want us to play.


He was referring to cartels, sex traffickers, ect. All of those are a massive problem coming from the southern border illegally. It's true that he chose to highlight those types of illegal immigrants, but it does not mean he was incorrect in pointing out a problem. Mexico is a high crime country, it's notorious for being that way. This is not even a matter of race as much as it is about nationality. What Trump said could be seen as nationalist but to say it is racist is iffy. Remember, ALL illegal immigrants are technically criminals because they committed a crime in not immigrating legally.


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Shahunshah
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04 Jan 2019, 2:43 am

Pyromanic wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Pyromanic wrote:
I have been following Trump and watching his speeches much more closely than most people. I watched his every speech during the campaign, and try to watch most now. I see no indication that he is the hateful racist people are accusing him to be.

I think you have to look at his announcement speech in particular. I doubt you need me of all people to say this, but Trump said Mexican illegal immigrants, "They are bringing drugs, they are bringing crime, they are rapists." When he said that he used such a broad generalization that appeared to apply to most illegal immigrants crossing the border.

He didn't try temper his language whatsoever by instead saying that "Some Illegal immigrants pose safety risks." He simply described illegal immigrants crossing the border then jumped to labeling them, criminals. And that is the dog whistle in this context. And yes what Trump said was racist.

And yes I know he said, "Some are good people." But language is important and the word some implies that only a small amount are good individuals.

I don't expect you to concede this point. I certainly didn't a while back when I was less inclined to call out Trump's racist rhetoric. But I say this so that you can see our side.

Believe it or not, I don't enjoy discussing Trump's dog whistles and racist rhetoric. To me, it is basically wallowing in the dirt and playing the game his most ardent and rigid supporters want us to play.


He was referring to cartels, sex traffickers, ect. All of those are a massive problem coming from the southern border illegally. It's true that he chose to highlight those types of illegal immigrants, but it does not mean he was incorrect in pointing out a problem. Mexico is a high crime country, it's notorious for being that way. This is not even a matter of race as much as it is about nationality. What Trump said could be seen as nationalist but to say it is racist is iffy. Remember, ALL illegal immigrants are technically criminals because they committed a crime in not immigrating legally.

Well he didn't specify any of those groups when he made that statement did he. He simply described illegal immigrants crossing the border then jumped to calling them, rapists and criminals. That is a racist statement and the reactions of very bigoted groups in society seem to confirm it.



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04 Jan 2019, 4:05 am

He's a fraud like every other president since Kennedy.



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04 Jan 2019, 7:08 am

Look y'all here's Trump's strategy:

1) Put out an outrageous statement
2) Get free media coverage
3) Repeat

Some in this thread are still talking about the announcement speech for the Trump campaign, which is exactly why he made that statement about some illegal aliens being criminals. By 2015 every single prominent conservative had figured out that no matter what they say or do that they are going to be branded as a racist, sexist, bigoted, homophobic, transphobic piece of garbage who wants to poison the environment, take healthcare away from poor people, and return the world to the dark age. Trump was the first to effectively counter the 'evil Republican' caricature created by the left by using their own outrage to generate free PR while betting on the fact that a good portion of the nation is sick and tired of the Rules for Radicals playbook being shoved down their throats.

And it worked. Over three years on from his campaign announcement, his political enemies in the media still haven't realized what he's doing. Some of them may actually believe that he is simultaneously a total idiot, Russian agent, and the next Hitler. He doesn't care. He just sits in the oval office and put out a ridiculous tweet that takes up the news cycle making the media talk about what he wants them to talk about, and while everyone is focused on his words they'll ignore his actions. The Trump agenda moves forward.



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04 Jan 2019, 8:20 am

I wish that people would stop talking about Russiagate. It is not that there is no cancer on Trump but it's the wrong cancer.

Trump is sending hundreds of billions worth of armaments to the Saudis for their genocidal war in Yemen. In August of last year, Saudi jets struck a bus killing 40 Yemeni children. When the wreckage was uncovered, the MK-82 bombs that destroyed the bus were traced back to the US defence contractor, Lockheed Martin.

Oh and did you know, Saudi Arabia is supporting Al Qaeda in Yemen. This is according to liberal old Fox News: https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-allies ... s-in-yemen

So there it is liberals. If you want to condemn Trump don't look in the shadows. Look in plain sight. That is what true power does, true power doesn't hide anything, it f***s us over in plain sight.

I am not expecting this to persuade people. But the scandal is concrete and that is what is effective. If Conservatives heard about it, the vast majority would still be Trump supporters, but a majority or plurality of them would also likely say "Wow that is bad. Trump shouldn't be doing that." And to focus on this would draw attention to one of the worst humanitarian crises facing the world, and alert the World to all those in need.



Last edited by Shahunshah on 04 Jan 2019, 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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04 Jan 2019, 8:32 am

The above two posts are the only sensible analyses of the Trump phenomenon I've read on this site so far.