Japan managed to win its war on drugs. Why can't we?

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cberg
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14 Feb 2019, 1:00 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
cberg wrote:
You clearly have no idea what Marijuana prohibition is. It began as a Jim Crow law that was disproportionately applied to African Americans.

You say I'm spreading cancer? My mom is a cancer researcher & she favors legalization because cannabidiol saves lives. I wouldn't be alive to write this had I not been introduced to medical Marijuana.

I think you just don't care about others cancer nor seizures, PTSD, neuropathy, or pretty much any chronic pain conditions.

The fact that you mentioned cancer as a casual bit of slang says a lot about you. Bye.


Your posts aren't really doing your argument any favours. What are you on about? You mentioned cancer! My parents have both had cancer and I'm not against cannabis being used as treatment. That is completely separate to just wanting to get high.


You're completely wrong, THC is necessary in moderate amounts if someone wants the maximum benefit of non-psychoactive cannabinoids. People are dying all the time from legal opiates & those get them higher than weed ever could. Demeaning people for getting high but making an exception if someone's dying is a double standard I'm not inclined to put up with, ever. It's legal to sell cigarettes laced with industrial toxins, enough fentanyl to kill entire towns, rat poison as heart medicine but god forbid some weirdos dancing around a flower.


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14 Feb 2019, 2:19 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
Your first paragraph shows that you missed my point re Common Law entirely. The fact that we currently tolerate some unhealthy practises as a society doesn't mean that we should introduce new ones, and scrapping the current ones wholesale with, as it were, one motion of the hand, places too much confidence in the ability of bureaucrats to determine what will be good for us and to avoid unforeseen effects of legislation. Of course, even if I did have to drop my argument from individual health effects which, by the way, I acknowledge isn't wholly clearcut, there is still the much, much stronger argument on the basis of neighborhood effects. I think I stated earlier that the paternalistic argument for cannabis prohibition is, for me, secondary to the one made on the basis of public morals and crime levels.

As for your accusation of puritanism on my part, I have no objection to anybody's enjoying their pet vices, generally speaking, provided they're aware of the risks involved and harm nobody else. This is implicit in the fact that, unlike those on what passes for the "left" of the political spectrum today, I don't advocate banning cigarettes or covering the packaging in pictures of dying children and I don't advocate banning meat.


It's an education problem why I have a hard time understanding what you are trying to say. Sorry about that, I can't help it. The way you word things makes it difficult for me to understand what exactly you are trying to say.

Prohibiting things can have it's own very negative impacts, as VegetableMan pointed out. How does marijuana destroy neighborhoods? Bad neighborhoods have all kinds of factors that contribute to being bad neighborhoods, it's not like if you allow a neighborhood to smoke marijuana it will go from good to bad, call me crazy but I don't believe there is any shred of evidence to suggest that. The most dominate factor of bad neighborhoods is poverty. Which also leads to prohibited drugs being sold for money and the most damaging drugs are meth, crack, cocaine and heroin....not marijuana. The fact of the matter is people are going to do what they wish to do regardless of whether it is legal or not, since over 50% of Americans feel marijuana should be legal then it should be legal and it isn't an extremely negative substance like you make it out to be. Cigarettes and alcohol are more harmful than marijuana, so it's silly to suggest that because it was made illegal it should permanently remain illegal no matter that lies were used to make it illegal and no matter how many people think it should be legal and will continue to use it regardless.

And the most insane thing I read is, well, perhaps we should make murder and robbing people legal also. That is an extremely insane comparison. I bet 50% of Americans wouldn't be on board with that proposal. I would be shocked if you could get 0.01% of people in America to suggest that is a good idea.



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14 Feb 2019, 2:34 pm

About the last thing someone smoking pot wants is to cause trouble. They usually just want a really big bag of Cheetos.


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Crimadella
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14 Feb 2019, 2:39 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
About the last thing someone smoking pot wants is to cause trouble. They usually just want a really big bag of Cheetos.

LOL :D

Funny thing you mention that. My 3rd time smoking I ate a family sized bag of cheese puffs after smoking one joint, then someone lit another and every time it got passed to me it became more covered in orange cheese powder so they decided to start calling me cheeto boy.



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14 Feb 2019, 2:51 pm

Yeah, I never liked that orange dust. I always tended to eat sweat things when I was cerebrally enhanced. One I found a full bag of M&Ms in a drawer I'd forgotten was there. It was like a religious experience.


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cberg
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14 Feb 2019, 2:59 pm

I smoke herb so I can deliver better technology to your entire planet. Get over it.

OP & others here would rather see me strung out on oxycodone than treating my nerve pain, insomnia & anxiety by natural means. Right now my eyes feel like they're roasting on these screens. You can't fix that with percocet.

Being anti-marijuana pretty much only means being pro-heroin. A good friend of mine is a recovering opiate user. Taking our weed away would only push us towards much more dangerous drugs,I won't bore you woth the particulars because I already know you just don't care.


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Crimadella
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14 Feb 2019, 3:27 pm

cberg wrote:
I smoke herb so I can deliver better technology to your entire planet. Get over it.

OP & others here would rather see me strung out on oxycodone than treating my nerve pain, insomnia & anxiety by natural means. Right now my eyes feel like they're roasting on these screens. You can't fix that with percocet.

Being anti-marijuana pretty much only means being pro-heroin. A good friend of mine is a recovering opiate user. Taking our weed away would only push us towards much more dangerous drugs,I won't bore you woth the particulars because I already know you just don't care.

Just smoke a joint and smile :D
It's not going to happen, more and more people are getting on board with legalizing marijuana, even politicians and non-smokers/users. My mom has never smoked and even she believes that it was ridiculous to ever ban it in the first place. (just another way to stock prisoners that did no harm)

I like salty foods more than sweets, mostly that's because my teeth are sensitive to sugar. I don't really eat chees puffs anymore, but I love chocolate milk and pretzels. Sadly I'm not able to smoke anymore because I don't have any money to buy any. I miss being able to sleep good, now I constantly roll and have insanely stressful dreams.



cberg
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14 Feb 2019, 4:36 pm

Just grow your own! Or come chill in Colorado, I'll give you free weed. :mrgreen:

Some grotesque, evil plot that is. I don't know of any large businesses selling Marijuana, in relative terms, they're all tiny. For that matter, Phillip Morris is tiny compared to businesses I've worked in & I get baked almost every day.

Think about that next time you call hippies useless. This one is geared up to throw that back in your face.


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14 Feb 2019, 7:32 pm

Without consistent drugs wars there would be no Narcos on Netflix, and I like watching that series.

just enjoy the legal drugs aka alcohol while you can or move to Holland where weed is legal. Less drug related crime there I guess? at least regarding those "natural" drugs. Cannabis and pot have a very positive rap because they are natural however they are not as friendly and harmless as one would think. Still way way better than the other stuff, Crack, X, Heroin, the really harmful heavies.



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14 Feb 2019, 10:28 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Queuing this up, I think it'll be worth the watch:



Definitely watch this one. It was very interesting and covered negatives and positives for herb usage yet still shows that a lot of research still needs to be done. They need to drop the federal laws so marijuana can actually be studied, that's the main hold up. It's very educational, a doctor that promote in a medical stance from Canada debating with a journalist who wrote a book demonizing it. Though I will add that it seems the journalist did a lot of s**t talking and wrote the book from a bias prospective leaving out the positives, it was nice to have the doctor and Rogan challenging him and calling him out, he admits that yes, he did write it with a negative bias to counter positive bias. Not the way to go, it should just be an honest approach, no bias. I'm just re-posting and encourage anyone who didn't watch it to do so.



Crimadella
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14 Feb 2019, 10:31 pm

cberg wrote:
Just grow your own! Or come chill in Colorado, I'll give you free weed. :mrgreen:

Some grotesque, evil plot that is. I don't know of any large businesses selling Marijuana, in relative terms, they're all tiny. For that matter, Phillip Morris is tiny compared to businesses I've worked in & I get baked almost every day.

Think about that next time you call hippies useless. This one is geared up to throw that back in your face.


I wish. I live in georgia :( It's only legal for a few serious conditions yet there is no way to legally import it and no way to legally obtain it for patients who even have prescriptions. Here, use this marijuana prescription that you can't get filled??? :roll:



techstepgenr8tion
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15 Feb 2019, 12:26 am

Crimadella wrote:
Definitely watch this one. It was very interesting and covered negatives and positives for herb usage yet still shows that a lot of research still needs to be done. They need to drop the federal laws so marijuana can actually be studied, that's the main hold up. It's very educational, a doctor that promote in a medical stance from Canada debating with a journalist who wrote a book demonizing it. Though I will add that it seems the journalist did a lot of s**t talking and wrote the book from a bias prospective leaving out the positives, it was nice to have the doctor and Rogan challenging him and calling him out, he admits that yes, he did write it with a negative bias to counter positive bias. Not the way to go, it should just be an honest approach, no bias. I'm just re-posting and encourage anyone who didn't watch it to do so.

The thing that I did appreciate is that Alex was honest about being one-sided and explained why he felt that he had to, ie. if he hadn't been the book never would have cut through the noise and made it into public discourse.

I think the thing that annoyed me with Michael was that for all of the helpful information he did have to offer he also had a tendency to do his own cherry-picking of data. I'd say, maybe not surprisingly, that I'm probably closest to Joe's current position. CBD seems to be clearly the safest most useful byproduct. At the same time from my own life experience and knowing a lot of people like me, and adding Joe's talk about edibles in sensory deprivation tanks, there are a lot of ways to use mind-altering substances to challenge yourself, to drill deeper into your own unconscious to excavate and resolve things that are bothering you, or even to aid in invention/innovation in that psychedelics especially have a way (and Bret Weinstein underscored this with Sam Harris in Waking Up #109) of bringing thoughts, ideas, or observations to conscious awareness that were otherwise there but out of reach.

The psychological work-out, challenge, and self-initiatic value are high enough that total illegality would be a loss equal to or greater than the fallout in the other direction. The trouble with marijuana is there's no strict legality / strict illegality that doesn't have horrible fallout in some way, shape or form. With total legality and assuming no education we have people with genetic predispositions having a rough go of things, OTOH with total prohibition we have people trying these things at the risk of their own freedom and worse - an infantilized populace whose living on Salem-style dogma and stigma, which is never good for integrity and is the sort of thing that leads people to follow anyone off a cliff (the way the world is going it's getting too dangerous to have masses of unthinking followers - the right algorithm with feigned social authority could be devastating). The upsides of marijuana and psychedelics is something that's likely impossible to understand for anyone whose never smoked hash or, especially with psychedelics, never tripped - ie. it's a think people have heard of other people doing, who they gather must be degenerate in some way, and any support of such things is simply a flimsy unfounded/unsupported excuse for their degeneracy. It's a conversational gap that can't be closed by reasoning because if they don't have the experience they have nothing to connect the dots with. In a way it's like trying to argue for the value of mystical experiences with someone who has no idea what that is.


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15 Feb 2019, 7:25 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
That didn't get digested so I'll explain the point of bringing that up.


I got it fine, I just think you are being naive about how corporations will handle this and how people will behave. We are on a road where drugs will be sold in neat, pretty, plastic packaging available to purchase from the same place you pick up your groceries. This is a habit-forming product with a very high margin. It cannot be anything else but a total corporate dog pile: lawyers, accountants, IP, patents, crop strains, advertising. All of this sort of thing is going to pour into the nascent drugs industry. You might say they already have and are just waiting for the starting pistol to go off. I'm sure the guy who tends his plants every day with a little spray bottle will be happy to no longer fear the law, but you are helping to unleash something as bad, if not worse than tobacco on our societies.

Crimadella wrote:
What about obesity? That has very large impacts on the individual and society. Should obesity be outlawed? It still seems that you are trying to attack one substance while neglecting many other things that also impact the individual and society.


Good point. What about obesity? Do you think corporate infrastructure has any role to play in the obesity crisis? Sugar added by the ton to food to make it more palatable? Huge amounts of processing to help the bottom line? Poor sourcing? Low standards? Advertising? And you would trust these people with drugs!? It's these guys that are funding the campaign for legalisation. Pot martyrs don't have the cash.


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15 Feb 2019, 7:58 am

VegetableMan wrote:
About the last thing someone smoking pot wants is to cause trouble. They usually just want a really big bag of Cheetos.


This is false propaganda. I have no doubt that a causal link between repeated cannabis usage and violence will eventually be proved. But we can at least put this lie - that cannabis induces peaceful behaviour - to bed. An awful lot of horrendously violent crimes, including many school shootings and terrorist attacks and are committed either under the influence of cannabis or by regular cannabis users.

https://attackersmokedcannabis.com/


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15 Feb 2019, 8:18 am

Oh and more on the Big Tobacco parallels. Does this ring any bells:

Image

They are more clever these days, but you shouldn't fall for the medical marijuana nonsense. Once it's legal we will never hear anything about medical uses again because cannabis is a "medicine" in the same way rubbing heroin into your genitals is a medicine - are you actually getting better or are you just feeling better because you are drugged out? It's almost impossible to perform double blind trials (the foundation of medicine trials) on cannabis because patients know if they are high or not. The whole thing is very sloppy from the point of view of a serious clinician, but that doesn't stop the campaigners banging on about medical uses.


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