Japan managed to win its war on drugs. Why can't we?

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Crimadella
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15 Feb 2019, 9:24 am

Mikah wrote:
Oh and more on the Big Tobacco parallels. Does this ring any bells:

They are more clever these days, but you shouldn't fall for the medical marijuana nonsense. Once it's legal we will never hear anything about medical uses again because cannabis is a "medicine" in the same way rubbing heroin into your genitals is a medicine - are you actually getting better or are you just feeling better because you are drugged out? It's almost impossible to perform double blind trials (the foundation of medicine trials) on cannabis because patients know if they are high or not. The whole thing is very sloppy from the point of view of a serious clinician, but that doesn't stop the campaigners banging on about medical uses.


I understand what you are saying about advertisements, but the fact is It does have benefits, therefor it can and is prescribed as a medication, most medications if not all medications can have negative side effects, also it is a recreational drug. Their are people on both sides drawing conclusions from theories(Bad Idea). The fact is we want have any conclusions until drug trials are preformed. At the least the federal government needs to stop pretending it has no medical use and allow it to actually be studied. To me, they are the blame for lack of sufficient evidence. And I really hate the DEA's take on it, they aren't looking out for people, they are simply making easy attacks. Take CBD for example, it is not a recreational drug, it does not get you high, yet they are using the loop hole of it being derived from hemp or marijuana plants and saying it comes from these plants so it's illegal.

I hate how our country operates, it seems more than often they have no real interest in humanity. Like I said before, even prescription opioids are being falsely attacked. I have read studies and heard doctors talk about studies showing that prescription opioids aren't as bad as people are making them out to be. For anyone who managed to miss it, the CDC is propping up false statistics to falsely claim that thousands of people are dying from prescription opioids when in fact the majority of overdoses are from illegally imported Fentanyl sold as heroin. What they are doing is so very wrong and horrific for chronic pain patients. They are using herion user deaths (when sold Fentanyl) as prescription opioid overdoses. It's sad to see that even Rogan and that doctor have not caught onto the scam at play. There are tons of evidence to support this.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/e ... nds-alerts

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 727015002/

https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/01/24/do ... -cdc-10758



techstepgenr8tion
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15 Feb 2019, 9:29 am

Mikah wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
That didn't get digested so I'll explain the point of bringing that up.


I got it fine, I just think you are being naive about how corporations will handle this and how people will behave. We are on a road where drugs will be sold in neat, pretty, plastic packaging available to purchase from the same place you pick up your groceries. This is a habit-forming product with a very high margin.

It might be worth checking the the tax situation for cannabis in states that have legalized. Unless they're thinking about selling marijuana at a loss for years it doesn't make sense.


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Mikah
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15 Feb 2019, 11:46 am

Crimadella wrote:
but the fact is It does have benefits, therefor it can and is prescribed as a medication


Are you sure? The medicinal cannabis lobby is just an arm of the recreational lobby as far as I can tell, just as the tobacco lobby co-opted doctors to push their poison and disseminate disinformation. There's little doubt that cannabis is a decent painkiller, but the legalisation lobby does not want parallels drawn with painkillers like heroin as they could never get something like heroin legalised on the similar terms, at least not before cannabis. So cannabis has to be so much more than a painkiller, it has to be a wonder drug than can help everything from MS to cancer to epilepsy. The actual clinical evidence is sketchy at best (though you wouldn't know it from the pro-cannabis folks) and all the money poured into dodgy studies and questionable doctors will dry up once the corporates have their route to market and no longer need the "red herring" of medicinal cannabis (Keith Stroup said it in 1979- look it up).

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
It might be worth checking the the tax situation for cannabis in states that have legalized. Unless they're thinking about selling marijuana at a loss for years it doesn't make sense.


Everything is a step along a road, the corporate suits are patient.


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15 Feb 2019, 12:22 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
Prohibition gave us the crime syndicate.


There's a massive difference between taking something that's already in society then trying to completely eradicate it and trying to nip a dangerous drug in the bud before it gets too late. No pun intended.


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Crimadella
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15 Feb 2019, 12:31 pm

Mikah wrote:
Crimadella wrote:
but the fact is It does have benefits, therefor it can and is prescribed as a medication


Are you sure? The medicinal cannabis lobby is just an arm of the recreational lobby as far as I can tell, just as the tobacco lobby co-opted doctors to push their poison and disseminate disinformation. There's little doubt that cannabis is a decent painkiller, but the legalisation lobby does not want parallels drawn with painkillers like heroin as they could never get something like heroin legalised on the similar terms, at least not before cannabis. So cannabis has to be so much more than a painkiller, it has to be a wonder drug than can help everything from MS to cancer to epilepsy. The actual clinical evidence is sketchy at best (though you wouldn't know it from the pro-cannabis folks) and all the money poured into dodgy studies and questionable doctors will dry up once the corporates have their route to market and no longer need the "red herring" of medicinal cannabis (Keith Stroup said it in 1979- look it up).


Speaking from experience. I have about seven degenerated discs, 3 in my neck including 3 pinched nerves. Smoking marijuana is how I got by without medical attention up until age 32 or so. Marijuana was no longer strong enough to keep my pain level at a reasonable level so I could go to work doing physical labor(City maintenance employee , road repair, water line repair, on cal 24-7(small town, 3 employees)). The discs in my neck give me the most trouble, my shoulder muscles are always swollen and rock hard, I also have EDS, (musculoskeletal hypermobility form) which also contributes a lot of pain in the same area, the tension rises through the day, the discs always radiate pain but increases through the day, after so many hours, typically 4-5, the pain makes it up to the back of my head which pounds so hard I can hear my pulse.

I was forced to stop smoking marijuana so I could go to a pain clinic. They gave me 90 muscle relaxers a month(flexeril 10mg), Highest dose of diclofenac(I think 150mg a day, anti-inflammatory), toradol shots(maximum dosage 60mg a month), and 120 Tramadol a month. I kept telling the doctor my pain medication isn't strong enough, I went to the clinic for 7 months, they wouldn't give me anything stronger for pain because I 'Look' like a drug addict(autism, socially awkward), I was in more pain than I was when I was smoking marijuana only. If I would had been allowed to smoke marijuana and have the other meds it would have been sufficient. I know this because it took two months to get an appointment so for the first month I continued to smoke marijuana.(My physician gave me enough meds for me to make it to my appointment.)(I was honest about smoking marijuana, therefor he sent me to a clinic which gave me a drug test every month, and I passed them all because I stopped smoking a month before my appointment). I eventually got tired of still being in too much pain having to constantly get off work after so many hours and having to drive 40 minutes for a doctor to spend 2 minutes with me and then tell me he wasn't going to adjust my meds. It's really messed up considering they also did physical therapy yet never offered it to me, I found this out when I stopped going and went back to my physician to get all my meds except Tramadol. I started back smoking marijuana, I discontinued my other meds once I ran out and didn't go back to the doctor(I dislike paying for people to not help me). So, what I quickly noticed is the other meds didn't really help at all, the muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatories and the monthly shot. I was in less pain by simply smoking marijuana. Of course, it still wasn't enough which eventually left me unable to work(among other conditions from autism and severe anxiety and server social phobia. Maybe it doesn't work for everybody, but i dislike people making claims that it is non-effective when it most certainly was effective for me. Obviously people are wrong when they suggest it can't help with pain, though I will add, it's not like a pain pill, it prevents inflammation, it reduces muscle tension, I could have made it with marijuana and tramadol.



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15 Feb 2019, 12:34 pm

Mikah wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
It might be worth checking the the tax situation for cannabis in states that have legalized. Unless they're thinking about selling marijuana at a loss for years it doesn't make sense.

Everything is a step along a road, the corporate suits are patient.

Is your theory falsifiable at all?


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15 Feb 2019, 12:41 pm

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because cannabis is a "medicine" in the same way rubbing heroin into your genitals is a medicine


So you've tried both huh?


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15 Feb 2019, 12:42 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Prohibition gave us the crime syndicate.


There's a massive difference between taking something that's already in society then trying to completely eradicate it and trying to nip a dangerous drug in the bud before it gets too late. No pun intended.


Marijuana is the number one cash crop in the U.S. It's been around forever, it's been used forever. Let's eliminate the crime factor, 'cause you ain't gonna stop people from smoking it. In fact, teens can get pot way easier than alcohol.


It's was already too late centuries ago,


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15 Feb 2019, 12:42 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Prohibition gave us the crime syndicate.


There's a massive difference between taking something that's already in society then trying to completely eradicate it and trying to nip a dangerous drug in the bud before it gets too late. No pun intended.


You don't decide what other people do with THEIR BODIES, legal or not. You don't own the rest of us.

Some people live more dangerously than you & it's on you to deal with that.


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15 Feb 2019, 1:58 pm

Quote:


Marijuana is the number one cash crop in the U.S. It's been around forever, it's been used forever. Let's eliminate the crime factor, 'cause you ain't gonna stop people from smoking it. In fact, teens can get pot way easier than alcohol.


It's was already too late centuries ago,



I find it incredible that the argument from fatalism ("people are going to smoke dope no matter what, so let's just go ahead and legalise it") is being used in a thread where part of the very premise of that thread itself is that it has already been successfully eradicated (to a satisfactory extent) in one country in the world. Unless you're also going to put forward the laughable (and racist) suggestion, made by somebody on the first page, that the Japanese are genetically inclined to being more pliable by their government, then the argument doesn't work.



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15 Feb 2019, 2:09 pm

Hokkaido has plenty of Marijuana, or so I heard. It's a plant, just part of nature, you don't need to kill all Marijuana to live your life peacefully & this is none of your business.

If you don't like weed, you don't have to smoke it.

You also said you smoke tobacco anyway so I'm just not going to countenance your hippocrasy.


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15 Feb 2019, 2:16 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
Quote:


Marijuana is the number one cash crop in the U.S. It's been around forever, it's been used forever. Let's eliminate the crime factor, 'cause you ain't gonna stop people from smoking it. In fact, teens can get pot way easier than alcohol.


It's was already too late centuries ago,



I find it incredible that the argument from fatalism ("people are going to smoke dope no matter what, so let's just go ahead and legalise it") is being used in a thread where part of the very premise of that thread itself is that it has already been successfully eradicated (to a satisfactory extent) in one country in the world. Unless you're also going to put forward the laughable (and racist) suggestion, made by somebody on the first page, that the Japanese are genetically inclined to being more pliable by their government, then the argument doesn't work.



It's not a "fatalist," argument, it's one based on realism. Also, I find the whole notion of telling people what they can and can't put in their bodies absolutely odious. And since such policies have failed miserably in the U.S., I don't see how continually repeating them makes any sense.


Just because it worked in Japan, doesn't mean that it will work here. You're talking two cultures with vast differences. I'm just terribly predisposed to this sort of social engineering by government.


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15 Feb 2019, 2:16 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
Quote:


Marijuana is the number one cash crop in the U.S. It's been around forever, it's been used forever. Let's eliminate the crime factor, 'cause you ain't gonna stop people from smoking it. In fact, teens can get pot way easier than alcohol.


It's was already too late centuries ago,



I find it incredible that the argument from fatalism ("people are going to smoke dope no matter what, so let's just go ahead and legalise it") is being used in a thread where part of the very premise of that thread itself is that it has already been successfully eradicated (to a satisfactory extent) in one country in the world. Unless you're also going to put forward the laughable (and racist) suggestion, made by somebody on the first page, that the Japanese are genetically inclined to being more pliable by their government, then the argument doesn't work.


Actually, I'm sure all drugs have not been successfully eradicated in Japan, so to insist that the war on drugs has won in Japan simply because marijuana has been successfully eradicated is quite a leap, what if all that was actually accomplished is the softest drug was eradicated(You have to grow it) therefor if you want to try a drug it's going to be a much more harmful drug. Which I doubt that is even true, you're suggesting that not one person in japan smokes marijuana? That is hard to believe, maybe it's been dramatically cut down, drugs can always be imported. Marijuana is just more difficult to import and grow/make and use(Because of the strong smell) versus other more harmful drugs.

Hmmm. Is the marijuana eradication a complete lie from the start? Why am I finding recent articles of marijuana use and arrests in Japan??
https://www.dw.com/en/japan-struggles-w ... a-44094855
https://japantoday.com/category/crime/g ... -musicians
https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-asi ... triggering



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15 Feb 2019, 2:19 pm

This whole thread is a lie. War is a lie. Prohibition is a lethal joke.


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15 Feb 2019, 2:27 pm

I'm not finding any articles in 2019(I forgot it's 2019, lol). But still, it's eradicated completely because of no articles in 2019? Would that be jumping to conclusions? What a way to go also, real nice play for humanity, 5 year prison sentence for getting caught smoking a joint.