Japan managed to win its war on drugs. Why can't we?

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cberg
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15 Feb 2019, 2:32 pm

:lmao: I'm going to get as baked as I can after work just in case.


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Crimadella
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15 Feb 2019, 2:37 pm

lol, yet it's now legal next door

Thailand's Legalization Of Medical Cannabis Proves One Very Important Thing
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrebourq ... d8555e14b3



cberg
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15 Feb 2019, 2:39 pm

I can sell you 5 bucks of weed or I can sell you several thousand dollars of engineering software.

Who's useless now punks?


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Crimadella
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15 Feb 2019, 3:05 pm

Once a drug user in Japan, always an outcast
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/ ... GcZ3aJKiUk

OMG, wow! Sure, lets save peoples lives by completely destroying peoples lives simply because they enjoy a buzz, which doesn't mean they will be unsuccessful. Why not eradicate drug use by shooting people in the head? Insanity, pure insanity. War against people with different preferences is what it boils down to.

Wait wait, alcohol is ok, any other preference in buzz and we will completely destroy your life!



VegetableMan
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15 Feb 2019, 3:13 pm

Crimadella wrote:
Once a drug user in Japan, always an outcast
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/ ... GcZ3aJKiUk

OMG, wow! Sure, lets save peoples lives by completely destroying peoples lives simply because they enjoy a buzz, which doesn't mean they will be unsuccessful. Why not eradicate drug use by shooting people in the head? Insanity, pure insanity. War against people with different preferences is what it boils down to.

Wait wait, alcohol is ok, any other preference in buzz and we will completely destroy your life!




Slam dunk! The premise of this thread has just been destroyed!


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JohnPowell
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15 Feb 2019, 3:37 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Prohibition gave us the crime syndicate.


There's a massive difference between taking something that's already in society then trying to completely eradicate it and trying to nip a dangerous drug in the bud before it gets too late. No pun intended.


Marijuana is the number one cash crop in the U.S. It's been around forever, it's been used forever. Let's eliminate the crime factor, 'cause you ain't gonna stop people from smoking it. In fact, teens can get pot way easier than alcohol.


It's was already too late centuries ago,


Used for what though? Are you mixing it up with hemp? The US can do what it wants. I'm only interested in the UK. It was intentionally poured into society in the 50's-60's with evil intent and then laws were passed against possession in the early 70's. We already have two terrible drugs rife in society, introducing a third would be lunacy.


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cberg
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15 Feb 2019, 3:44 pm

'Society' is well aware of thousands of dangerous drugs. What people do with drugs is up to them.

Marijuana is less dangerous than nearly all other psychoactive drugs. It's also an inextricable part of multiple religions. If you don't have respect for others' choices you will be ignored.


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VegetableMan
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15 Feb 2019, 4:07 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Prohibition gave us the crime syndicate.


There's a massive difference between taking something that's already in society then trying to completely eradicate it and trying to nip a dangerous drug in the bud before it gets too late. No pun intended.


Marijuana is the number one cash crop in the U.S. It's been around forever, it's been used forever. Let's eliminate the crime factor, 'cause you ain't gonna stop people from smoking it. In fact, teens can get pot way easier than alcohol.


It's was already too late centuries ago,


Used for what though? Are you mixing it up with hemp? The US can do what it wants. I'm only interested in the UK. It was intentionally poured into society in the 50's-60's with evil intent and then laws were passed against possession in the early 70's. We already have two terrible drugs rife in society, introducing a third would be lunacy.



The use of marijuana as an intoxicant dates back to ancient times. It's been used as such at least since the 19th century in the U.S.


But it's already been introduced, how are you going to stop it, now? That's the part I'm struggling to understand. Prohibition just doesn't work. Do you want tougher and tougher laws, penalizing users, tossing them into prison? We've been doing that for years in the U.S., and it hasn't worked. Finally some sanity has begun to set in. People are realizing you can't control what everyone does.


If there is a market for a product, you won't stop it by making it illegal. The problems caused by criminalization are far worse than the one caused by the drugs. I'm all for everyone living a drug-free life. But not at the barrel of a gun.


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15 Feb 2019, 4:19 pm

I think the fallacy at play here is that the cannabis smokers in this thread assume that, because they can personally smoke it and have enough self control to moderate it to the point that it doesn't impact on their health and they personally have never committed acts of violence as a result of being high in the drug - that this must therefore be the case for everybody else. This is the reason why liberalism in its crude sense is so enchanting and convincing at the same time as being potentially destructive; nobody believes that HE will use HIS freedom for destructive ends, and maybe he's right, but enough people do use it for such ends that pure laissez-faire has become untenable.

The Japanese national philosophy is difficult, and that's why young millennials (and I am part of this demographic myself, of course) find it so unpalatable, but the empirical success of their philosophy is in the fact of a clean, well ordered, prosperous country with some of the best educational standards in the world, some of the lowest crime levels in the world and almost every other state of affairs the west can only envy. I think we're in denial if we assume there's no link here. I'm reminded again of BF Skinner's comment on Milton's Satan; is a miserable, backward, crime ridden, dirty hellhole like many of the larger cities in the US and the EU a good price to pay for "liberation"? Of course, liberation and freedom in the sense we in Britain and America talk about them, as Christopher Lasch pointed out in the 1970s are not true freedom anyway - but freedom to consume, which is the only reason big business is so keenly lobbying for THIS particular freedom. Imagine the same faces campaigning for any freedom worthy of the name - say freedom of speech or freedom of expression; these are precisely the freedoms the same people are campaigning to dismantle.



Last edited by Prometheus18 on 15 Feb 2019, 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cberg
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15 Feb 2019, 4:26 pm

Do I know you? I'm strictly nonviolent in every conventional sense. Speak for yourself & stop parroting pharmaceutical industry lobbyists.

"Pure Laissez-faire" thinking is the only reason you have the internet you're using to slander us. Other people being irresponsible is not a reason to tar & feather law abiding Marijuana users. You don't know what you're talking about because you're predisposed against it. Violence is not the same thing as the cause of violence & drugs are just drugs.

You think Marijuana is dangerous but have you even heard of Scopolamine?


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15 Feb 2019, 4:31 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
I think the fallacy at play here is that the cannabis smokers in this thread assume that, because they can personally smoke it and have enough self control to moderate it to the point that it doesn't impact on their health and they personally have never committed acts of violence as a result of being high in the drug - that this must therefore be the case for everybody else. This is the reason why liberalism in its crude sense is so enchanting and convincing at the same time as being potentially destructive; nobody believes that HE will use HIS freedom for destructive ends, and maybe he's right, but enough people do use it for such ends that pure laissez-faire has become untenable.

We'll see if the research pans out in the direction of those concerns.


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15 Feb 2019, 4:32 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
I think the fallacy at play here is that the cannabis smokers in this thread assume that, because they can personally smoke it and have enough self control to moderate it to the point that it doesn't impact on their health and they personally have never committed acts of violence as a result of being high in the drug - that this must therefore be the case for everybody else. This is the reason why liberalism in its crude sense is so enchanting and convincing at the same time as being potentially destructive; nobody believes that HE will use HIS freedom for destructive ends, and maybe he's right, but enough people do use it for such ends that pure laissez-faire has become untenable.


That has nothing to do with my position whatsoever. It's that criminalization doesn't work -- unless you enjoy living in a police state.

It's funny you should mention liberalism. I've always asserted that the positions they take on this issue is a more of a conservative one. I mean, don't conservatives generally believe in small government? To me, legislating what you can or can't put in your body is the epitome of big, intrusive government.


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cberg
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15 Feb 2019, 4:34 pm

The "research" on this topic is being surpressed unless it's conducted by pharmaceutical labs invested in prohibition.


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Prometheus18
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15 Feb 2019, 4:40 pm

cberg wrote:
Do I know you? I'm strictly nonviolent in every conventional sense. Speak for yourself & stop parroting pharmaceutical industry lobbyists.

"Pure Laissez-faire" thinking is the only reason you have the internet you're using to slander us. Other people being irresponsible is not a reason to tar & feather law abiding Marijuana users. You don't know what you're talking about because you're predisposed against it. Violence is not the same thing as the cause of violence & drugs are just drugs.

You think Marijuana is dangerous but have you even heard of Scopolamine?


I never accused you or anyone else personally of being violent - the exact opposite, in fact. I'm also no fan of pharmaceutical companies AT ALL - I think they're some of the most contemptible people in the world.

I don't know how well you understand economic theory, but pure laissez-faire is something almost no thinker on either side of the spectrum would approve of, and it's more associated with the far right than with the left. You don't sound like the sort of person who follows Ayn Rand.

I'm most certainly not predisposed against cannabis; in fact, I only changed my mind about it fairly recently.



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15 Feb 2019, 4:50 pm

People that don't do drugs become violent also?

The main thing is, humans evolved using drugs. You may try to eradicate drugs but it will never work, drugs can always be grown or chemically synthesized. You will never completely snuff out curiosity of human beings, there will always be more humans who gain interest in exploring drugs which alter ones mind state. By continuing to rage war on them, is to rage war on natural curiosity and the battle will never end. All you will do is damage lives to push an unconquerable agenda infinitely.