Japan managed to win its war on drugs. Why can't we?

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cberg
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15 Feb 2019, 4:53 pm

Bottom line: war is for idiots. You're better off getting stoned than supporting wars.


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15 Feb 2019, 4:54 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
I think the fallacy at play here is that the cannabis smokers in this thread assume that, because they can personally smoke it and have enough self control to moderate it to the point that it doesn't impact on their health and they personally have never committed acts of violence as a result of being high in the drug - that this must therefore be the case for everybody else. This is the reason why liberalism in its crude sense is so enchanting and convincing at the same time as being potentially destructive; nobody believes that HE will use HIS freedom for destructive ends, and maybe he's right, but enough people do use it for such ends that pure laissez-faire has become untenable.


That has nothing to do with my position whatsoever. It's that criminalization doesn't work -- unless you enjoy living in a police state.

It's funny you should mention liberalism. I've always asserted that the positions they take on this issue is a more of a conservative one. I mean, don't conservatives generally believe in small government? To me, legislating what you can or can't put in your body is the epitome of big, intrusive government.

I wouldn't consider Japan a police state.

In a strict sense, the positions are probably the right way round, it's just that the meanings of the terms "liberal" and "conservative" have changed over time to the point that they know mean the opposites of what they meant in the 19th century.

Quote:
Bottom line: war is for idiots. You're better off getting stoned than supporting wars.



In some ways, I don't disagree with you there. I think I've come off more intense in this thread than I actually am; I don't think the ban on cannabis is a big deal, though I do support it, it's being overturned wouldn't make a world of difference to me. Certainly, my opposition to war, in the military sense, is a political conviction I'm much more passionate about.



Last edited by Prometheus18 on 15 Feb 2019, 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JohnPowell
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15 Feb 2019, 4:55 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Prohibition gave us the crime syndicate.


There's a massive difference between taking something that's already in society then trying to completely eradicate it and trying to nip a dangerous drug in the bud before it gets too late. No pun intended.


Marijuana is the number one cash crop in the U.S. It's been around forever, it's been used forever. Let's eliminate the crime factor, 'cause you ain't gonna stop people from smoking it. In fact, teens can get pot way easier than alcohol.


It's was already too late centuries ago,


Used for what though? Are you mixing it up with hemp? The US can do what it wants. I'm only interested in the UK. It was intentionally poured into society in the 50's-60's with evil intent and then laws were passed against possession in the early 70's. We already have two terrible drugs rife in society, introducing a third would be lunacy.



The use of marijuana as an intoxicant dates back to ancient times. It's been used as such at least since the 19th century in the U.S.


But it's already been introduced, how are you going to stop it, now? That's the part I'm struggling to understand. Prohibition just doesn't work. Do you want tougher and tougher laws, penalizing users, tossing them into prison? We've been doing that for years in the U.S., and it hasn't worked. Finally some sanity has begun to set in. People are realizing you can't control what everyone does.


If there is a market for a product, you won't stop it by making it illegal. The problems caused by criminalization are far worse than the one caused by the drugs. I'm all for everyone living a drug-free life. But not at the barrel of a gun.


I'd imagine the figures have spiralled out of control though. By enforcing the law, like we haven't been doing for nearly 50 years. By education and fighting the billionaires thst wish to legalise it to get richer. They aren't trying to legalise it cause they care about your freedoms. We have launched a massive campaign in the UK to stop people smoking cigarettes in the UK now we know the link between smoking and lung cancer. Now we are seeing the links between cannabis and mental Illness, so we should pull the brakes. I don't want to see more and more drug driving, especially given our police force is falling apart.

There's one decent argument for legalizing drugs in the US. Stopping the CIA black ops.


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JohnPowell
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15 Feb 2019, 4:56 pm

cberg wrote:
Bottom line: war is for idiots. You're better off getting stoned than supporting wars.


I'm against legalizing cannabis and I'm against wars. Your point is absurd.


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cberg
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15 Feb 2019, 5:13 pm

If you're advocating for a drug war, you're advocating for a huge body count. More than drugs could ever kill.

Count off: does anyone else in here speak a word of Español?


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15 Feb 2019, 5:34 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Prohibition gave us the crime syndicate.


There's a massive difference between taking something that's already in society then trying to completely eradicate it and trying to nip a dangerous drug in the bud before it gets too late. No pun intended.


Marijuana is the number one cash crop in the U.S. It's been around forever, it's been used forever. Let's eliminate the crime factor, 'cause you ain't gonna stop people from smoking it. In fact, teens can get pot way easier than alcohol.


It's was already too late centuries ago,


Used for what though? Are you mixing it up with hemp? The US can do what it wants. I'm only interested in the UK. It was intentionally poured into society in the 50's-60's with evil intent and then laws were passed against possession in the early 70's. We already have two terrible drugs rife in society, introducing a third would be lunacy.



The use of marijuana as an intoxicant dates back to ancient times. It's been used as such at least since the 19th century in the U.S.


But it's already been introduced, how are you going to stop it, now? That's the part I'm struggling to understand. Prohibition just doesn't work. Do you want tougher and tougher laws, penalizing users, tossing them into prison? We've been doing that for years in the U.S., and it hasn't worked. Finally some sanity has begun to set in. People are realizing you can't control what everyone does.


If there is a market for a product, you won't stop it by making it illegal. The problems caused by criminalization are far worse than the one caused by the drugs. I'm all for everyone living a drug-free life. But not at the barrel of a gun.


I'd imagine the figures have spiralled out of control though. By enforcing the law, like we haven't been doing for nearly 50 years. By education and fighting the billionaires thst wish to legalise it to get richer. They aren't trying to legalise it cause they care about your freedoms. We have launched a massive campaign in the UK to stop people smoking cigarettes in the UK now we know the link between smoking and lung cancer. Now we are seeing the links between cannabis and mental Illness, so we should pull the brakes. I don't want to see more and more drug driving, especially given our police force is falling apart.

There's one decent argument for legalizing drugs in the US. Stopping the CIA black ops.



You're right, no one is legalizing because they care about our freedoms. Most of the politicians who are taking big money from the Prison-Industrial Complex, big pharm, etc., would keep campaigning for continued criminalization of pot. But sometimes the will of the people can still effect change, even if you don't agree it's the right thing.


All the stuff I've read in the past seems to indicate that pot can't cause mental illness if there isn't already a predisposition to mental illnesses. You may be correct, I don't know, I'd have to catch up on the research. It still wouldn't change my mind, for the reasons I've already stated.


Yeah, the CIA! Probably the worst drug dealers of all! That could be a whole topic to itself.


Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this conversation. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one!


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enz
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09 Mar 2019, 7:38 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
magz wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
I completely agree that possession of any amount of cannabis should result in criminal charges.

I completely disagree.
Let's learn from American Prohibition. Illegal but socially accepted activities are the best for mafia.

It's a fallacy to compare it to alcohol; alcohol has been consumed in the west for millennia and, like it or not, is a part of our culture - cannabis, on the other hand, is a 1960s imposition from those functionless creatures - the hippies. It can and should be eradicated while still in its nascent stages.


People who abuse McDonald's or video games are in the same boat as the hippies because they didn't implement moderation.

Were not talking Crystal Meth here, weed can be used by adults in moderation. Used in this way it has negligible effects on being successful (neither positive or negative)

Yes its addictive, everything you enjoy doing is addictive

Like I said earlier in this thread Successful people who have used it: Bill Clinton, Obama, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs



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09 Mar 2019, 10:36 pm

Japan allows smoking indoors and has a huge smoking rate. Tobacco is still a drug and a bad one.


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09 Mar 2019, 11:29 pm

enz wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
magz wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
I completely agree that possession of any amount of cannabis should result in criminal charges.

I completely disagree.
Let's learn from American Prohibition. Illegal but socially accepted activities are the best for mafia.

It's a fallacy to compare it to alcohol; alcohol has been consumed in the west for millennia and, like it or not, is a part of our culture - cannabis, on the other hand, is a 1960s imposition from those functionless creatures - the hippies. It can and should be eradicated while still in its nascent stages.


People who abuse McDonald's or video games are in the same boat as the hippies because they didn't implement moderation.

Were not talking Crystal Meth here, weed can be used by adults in moderation. Used in this way it has negligible effects on being successful (neither positive or negative)

Yes its addictive, everything you enjoy doing is addictive

Like I said earlier in this thread Successful people who have used it: Bill Clinton, Obama, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs


While I strongly agree with you on everything you said, I think you have one of those people wrong. Elon Musk does not smoke weed. He hit it once or twice on the Joe Rogan show and said he doesn't really like it. Sure, he could be an 'in the closet' smoker, but it sure didn't seem so, it almost appeared as if he didn't inhale, he definitely didn't hold it in.



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10 Mar 2019, 12:12 am

i was told that by my japanese mother [when she was with the living], that japan has the sociological headwind of neo-Confucianism at its back, that is why intoxication/drug abuse there is not treated as lightly as it is here by the broad culture. there is a strongly stoic thread running through japanese life and above all a strongly moralistic sense of propriety which precludes allowing oneself to lose strict self-control via external substances. being a drunk/stoner over there, despite the common business habit of drinking as bonding with fellow employees [in the executive ranks especially] is still tsk-tsk'ed sotto-voce.



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10 Mar 2019, 2:14 am

In America as a reaction to the hippies, many states and locals passed and enforced strict drug laws. Drugs moved from the counterculture to the mainstream and now medical and recreational use of marijuana is starting to become legal. Prohibition on alcohol famously failed.

I do think culture plays a role. American culture emphasizes taking shortcuts, taking chances and living in the hear and now.


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10 Mar 2019, 9:50 am

enz wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
magz wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
I completely agree that possession of any amount of cannabis should result in criminal charges.

I completely disagree.
Let's learn from American Prohibition. Illegal but socially accepted activities are the best for mafia.

It's a fallacy to compare it to alcohol; alcohol has been consumed in the west for millennia and, like it or not, is a part of our culture - cannabis, on the other hand, is a 1960s imposition from those functionless creatures - the hippies. It can and should be eradicated while still in its nascent stages.


People who abuse McDonald's or video games are in the same boat as the hippies because they didn't implement moderation.

Were not talking Crystal Meth here, weed can be used by adults in moderation. Used in this way it has negligible effects on being successful (neither positive or negative)

Yes its addictive, everything you enjoy doing is addictive

Like I said earlier in this thread Successful people who have used it: Bill Clinton, Obama, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs


I don't consider any of those people to have been successful, but I accept that some people who have tried cannabis have been successful; this is, if you're not wholly ignorant of probability, a preordained certainty - the point is that they're successful in spite of their cannabis use, not because of it.



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10 Mar 2019, 12:19 pm

magz wrote:
There is a racial issue with alcohol - East Asians typically produce way less alcohol dehydrogenase than Europeans, resulting in less capacity for alcohol consumption. They get drunk easier and they have worse hangovers.
But I know of nothing similar about marijuana.

I was in Netherlands where it has been legal for quite a while, and I didn't come into any situation similar to description.
I also thougth - would it be any different if those guys weren't smoking weed but drinking booze instead?

No, in my opinion the problem is not about the substance.


The difference between smoking and drinking in my opinion is that if another individual is drinking and I walk past them it does not make me ingest alcohol. If another person is smoking and I walk past them I am forced to inhale their substance (I try to hold my breath if I see them coming, but this is only partially effective).


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enz
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10 Mar 2019, 5:35 pm

Prometheus18 wrote:
enz wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
magz wrote:
Prometheus18 wrote:
I completely agree that possession of any amount of cannabis should result in criminal charges.

I completely disagree.
Let's learn from American Prohibition. Illegal but socially accepted activities are the best for mafia.

It's a fallacy to compare it to alcohol; alcohol has been consumed in the west for millennia and, like it or not, is a part of our culture - cannabis, on the other hand, is a 1960s imposition from those functionless creatures - the hippies. It can and should be eradicated while still in its nascent stages.


People who abuse McDonald's or video games are in the same boat as the hippies because they didn't implement moderation.

Were not talking Crystal Meth here, weed can be used by adults in moderation. Used in this way it has negligible effects on being successful (neither positive or negative)

Yes its addictive, everything you enjoy doing is addictive

Like I said earlier in this thread Successful people who have used it: Bill Clinton, Obama, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs


I don't consider any of those people to have been successful, but I accept that some people who have tried cannabis have been successful; this is, if you're not wholly ignorant of probability, a preordained certainty - the point is that they're successful in spite of their cannabis use, not because of it.


You would really have to overdo it for it to wreck your life



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14 Mar 2019, 2:12 pm

In my personal experience, marijuana for recreational use (like perhaps most methods of experiencing a high) can potentially be detrimental, especially when it’s an effort to escape from undesirable states of mind, which is why I've abstained from it for about a year now. But although I can imagine that many users mainly take it for that reason, and acknowledge that it may have social consequences, seeing as it has not impaired me of my ability to know when to put it aside and make the choice to quit in the absence of any legal threats (it’s not an offense where I am) I’m keen to hear an honest justification for supporters of criminalization to be more eager to jump to an arguably violent solution as a response to what in most cases amounts to nothing more malicious than a phase of hedonism or a poor coping mechanism, and expose people for something like this to far worse behaviors while imprisoned along with a criminal record upon release, which would likely obstruct their ability to exercise their own sense of responsibility and recover their ability to contribute as they wish, if it were even lost at any point.

As for Japan's stance on the matter of its prohibition, as much as it might seem essential to their functionality that invites us to admire their culture, it's worth noting how there are a couple of things they are far more lax about which our conservatives would surely find far more incompatible with their ideal of an orderly society than the use of any drugs. An example would be the sexualized depictions of minors found in many mangas that are readily accessible, and only in recent years did it become an offense to be in possession of any material showing real kids like that. This along with the phenomena of hikikomori, burakumin, and a high suicide rate might be enough for us to think twice before going full weeb and deciding to imitate their society just because of some anime we like.