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Kraichgauer
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13 Apr 2019, 10:28 pm

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

To say :evil: .


It is not a lie that signing up for obamacare was a mandatory punishable law. Millions signed up for it because they HAD to, not because they wanted to. They were given an ultimatum. That hardcore fact.


Are you seriously trying to convince me that nobody supported Obamacare?!?! Because I can tell you, the millions who had been denied medical coverage due to poverty or preexisting conditions, certainly welcomed it with open arms. Just because the right doesn't ever take these people into consideration doesn't mean that their opinions don't count, or that their lives aren't of as much worth.


You said, "to say that millions only signed up with Obamacare because they had to is a complete right wing lie"

I pointed why it is not a lie. Of course they had to because it was a mandatory punishable law.

So far all that's been done is to finally do away with punishing millions of poor people $650 to $2300 fines per year.

What you're coming up with is the usual left-wing media doomsday prediction.


Are you trying to convince me that millions of people weren't barred from health coverage due to preexisting condition and poverty? Because yes, there were millions of such people, and they all jumped at the chance for Obamacare to take care of them. My idiot representative, Cathy McMorris-Rodgers, wanted people in my part of Washington state to send her their "Obamacare horror stories." What she got was not a single complaint, but praise for a President who finally cared for the down and out by giving them medical coverage. So yes, to say that Obamacare was forced on the American people, with absolutely no popular support for it, is a right wing lie.


Then why did Obama apologize for it?

And how can a punishable mandate not equal compulsory participation for many?

Sure there were millions who wanted it, especially all those who got it subsidized. But that doesn't change the fact that making it mandatory punishable with huge fines was wrong.

Now finally after years, when poor people file their 2019 taxes in 2020, they won't get hit with a huge fine because they couldn't afford non-subsidized obamacare premiums.

Really poor people already get medicare and free healthcare. One of our homeless members has had tons of free healthcare and weeks worth of free hospital stays.


Obama apologized that there were unforeseen consequences to what was essentially a Republican plan.
The mandatory punishments were aspects of the Republican plan. The idea behind it was to finance the ACA.
Poor people generally don't have to file taxes.
Really poor people got medicare. Plenty who of Americans who weren't poor enough didn't get any such coverage till the ACA. And I'll remind you, the GOP always wanted to cut Medicare coverage for the extreme poor, and punish "those lazy leaches."


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breaks0
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13 Apr 2019, 10:45 pm

40% of the US supports him. I not being one of them. And b/c the democrats are such sellouts to Wall Street (he is too, but his base doesn't know or care), they probably won't nominate the most popular politician in the country who could probably beat him (Bernie). If that happens, Trump'll likely be reelected.



Kraichgauer
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13 Apr 2019, 11:01 pm

breaks0 wrote:
40% of the US supports him. I not being one of them. And b/c the democrats are such sellouts to Wall Street (he is too, but his base doesn't know or care), they probably won't nominate the most popular politician in the country who could probably beat him (Bernie). If that happens, Trump'll likely be reelected.


God help us if that happens. :(


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Antrax
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13 Apr 2019, 11:03 pm

breaks0 wrote:
40% of the US supports him. I not being one of them. And b/c the democrats are such sellouts to Wall Street (he is too, but his base doesn't know or care), they probably won't nominate the most popular politician in the country who could probably beat him (Bernie). If that happens, Trump'll likely be reelected.


I think your political analysis is a little off-reality if you think say Bernie has a better chance of beating Trump than say Biden. Most of the country doesn't like Trump, but most of the country doesn't want to go far left wing either.

Hell in democrat only polls, Biden leads Bernie and with those two it's not a name recognition thing.


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breaks0
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13 Apr 2019, 11:20 pm

I disagree b/c the polling backs me up. If you poll most democrats and most independent voters, they want what his program calls for: less interventionist wars abroad, universal health care, free public education pre-k to college, a Green New Deal, cutting back on all these crazy free trade agreements, etc. And that's including in the rust belt states that cost Clinton the election (Pa, Oh, Wi, Mi). Look it up for yourself if you want.

Secondly, Biden can't beat Trump, I'm calling it now, he's too tied to Wall Street. He made his money off of consumer debt b/c of all the banks that dominate the Delaware economy. His sexual harrassment of women (and believe me more cases will come out, it's just a matter of time) matters to voters on the left and and among indie voters, unlike Trump's doing the same doesn't matter w/his base. When his record opposing Roe v Wade and attempting to restrict it, as well as his record on issues of racial justice come out, that again will hurt him. His support for interventionist wars abroad will as well. Frankly I don't see him getting the nomination, I think some other corporate shill will. But if he does, he can't beat Trump.

Thirdly, I've seen the polls you're talking about. I don't think that'll hold up once the debates start, if Biden even runs. He's a decent debater, but then again embarrassing Paul Ryan back in 2012 (or Sara Palin 4 years before that) isn't difficult to do. Bernie will stick to his issues and that combined w/his working class background (the most popular politician and being the ex-VP make them both household names obviously) and being able to relate to and get respect from everyone (even Trump voters) gives Bernie the popular edge. Along w/his lead among Millenials and Gen Z in all demographic categories and they're the largest chunk of the electorate now.

In the end, as I've said even if it is Biden, he won't win. Voter suppression is the other reason Trump won last time and w/40% support that'll stick w/him no matter what and his people running the show now, the suppression will be worse this time and will be to his benefit, not whoever the democrat is.



EzraS
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13 Apr 2019, 11:25 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

To say :evil: .


It is not a lie that signing up for obamacare was a mandatory punishable law. Millions signed up for it because they HAD to, not because they wanted to. They were given an ultimatum. That hardcore fact.


Are you seriously trying to convince me that nobody supported Obamacare?!?! Because I can tell you, the millions who had been denied medical coverage due to poverty or preexisting conditions, certainly welcomed it with open arms. Just because the right doesn't ever take these people into consideration doesn't mean that their opinions don't count, or that their lives aren't of as much worth.


You said, "to say that millions only signed up with Obamacare because they had to is a complete right wing lie"

I pointed why it is not a lie. Of course they had to because it was a mandatory punishable law.

So far all that's been done is to finally do away with punishing millions of poor people $650 to $2300 fines per year.

What you're coming up with is the usual left-wing media doomsday prediction.


Are you trying to convince me that millions of people weren't barred from health coverage due to preexisting condition and poverty? Because yes, there were millions of such people, and they all jumped at the chance for Obamacare to take care of them. My idiot representative, Cathy McMorris-Rodgers, wanted people in my part of Washington state to send her their "Obamacare horror stories." What she got was not a single complaint, but praise for a President who finally cared for the down and out by giving them medical coverage. So yes, to say that Obamacare was forced on the American people, with absolutely no popular support for it, is a right wing lie.


Then why did Obama apologize for it?

And how can a punishable mandate not equal compulsory participation for many?

Sure there were millions who wanted it, especially all those who got it subsidized. But that doesn't change the fact that making it mandatory punishable with huge fines was wrong.

Now finally after years, when poor people file their 2019 taxes in 2020, they won't get hit with a huge fine because they couldn't afford non-subsidized obamacare premiums.

Really poor people already get medicare and free healthcare. One of our homeless members has had tons of free healthcare and weeks worth of free hospital stays.


Obama apologized that there were unforeseen consequences to what was essentially a Republican plan.
The mandatory punishments were aspects of the Republican plan. The idea behind it was to finance the ACA.
Poor people generally don't have to file taxes.
Really poor people got medicare. Plenty who of Americans who weren't poor enough didn't get any such coverage till the ACA. And I'll remind you, the GOP always wanted to cut Medicare coverage for the extreme poor, and punish "those lazy leaches."


People who live meager paycheck to paycheck are poor and they do have to file taxes. And if they can't afford $2500 a year for $7500 deductible obamacare they get fined $650 - then multiply that exponentially for those who have dependents.

The rest is the rabbit hole of it was a republican plan so it's mostly their fault, while at the same time saying the republicans never wanted there to be healthcare plan.



Antrax
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14 Apr 2019, 12:19 am

breaks0 wrote:
I disagree b/c the polling backs me up. If you poll most democrats and most independent voters, they want what his program calls for: less interventionist wars abroad, universal health care, free public education pre-k to college, a Green New Deal, cutting back on all these crazy free trade agreements, etc. And that's including in the rust belt states that cost Clinton the election (Pa, Oh, Wi, Mi). Look it up for yourself if you want.


From RealClearPolitics taking the polling of general elections:

PPP:
Biden 53 Trump 40 (Biden +13)
Sanders 49 Trump 41 (Sanders +8)

Rasmussen Reports:
Biden 49, Trump 44 (Biden +5)
Sanders 44, Trump 47 (Trump +3)

Fox News:
Biden 47, Trump 40 (Biden +7)
Sanders 44, Trump 41 (Sanders +3)

Emerson:
Biden 55 Trump 45 (Biden +10)
Sanders 51 Trump 49 (Sanders +2)

Averaged across all 4 polls against Trump you get:
Biden +8.75
Sanders +2.5


That might be understandable if you thought either Sanders or Biden were relatively unknown, but just about everyone in the country know roughly who they are and generally where they stand on political issues. Also a 6.75 point difference is massive in politics.

Now I get what you're saying that Biden's gaffe and behavioral problems could sink his candidacy, but I think his popularity in polls is because people are starved of democratic candidates that are not crazy left wing. The democrats would be far better off nominating someone slightly left of center than Bernie Sanders.


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Kraichgauer
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14 Apr 2019, 1:08 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

To say :evil: .


It is not a lie that signing up for obamacare was a mandatory punishable law. Millions signed up for it because they HAD to, not because they wanted to. They were given an ultimatum. That hardcore fact.


Are you seriously trying to convince me that nobody supported Obamacare?!?! Because I can tell you, the millions who had been denied medical coverage due to poverty or preexisting conditions, certainly welcomed it with open arms. Just because the right doesn't ever take these people into consideration doesn't mean that their opinions don't count, or that their lives aren't of as much worth.


You said, "to say that millions only signed up with Obamacare because they had to is a complete right wing lie"

I pointed why it is not a lie. Of course they had to because it was a mandatory punishable law.

So far all that's been done is to finally do away with punishing millions of poor people $650 to $2300 fines per year.

What you're coming up with is the usual left-wing media doomsday prediction.


Are you trying to convince me that millions of people weren't barred from health coverage due to preexisting condition and poverty? Because yes, there were millions of such people, and they all jumped at the chance for Obamacare to take care of them. My idiot representative, Cathy McMorris-Rodgers, wanted people in my part of Washington state to send her their "Obamacare horror stories." What she got was not a single complaint, but praise for a President who finally cared for the down and out by giving them medical coverage. So yes, to say that Obamacare was forced on the American people, with absolutely no popular support for it, is a right wing lie.


Then why did Obama apologize for it?

And how can a punishable mandate not equal compulsory participation for many?

Sure there were millions who wanted it, especially all those who got it subsidized. But that doesn't change the fact that making it mandatory punishable with huge fines was wrong.

Now finally after years, when poor people file their 2019 taxes in 2020, they won't get hit with a huge fine because they couldn't afford non-subsidized obamacare premiums.

Really poor people already get medicare and free healthcare. One of our homeless members has had tons of free healthcare and weeks worth of free hospital stays.


Obama apologized that there were unforeseen consequences to what was essentially a Republican plan.
The mandatory punishments were aspects of the Republican plan. The idea behind it was to finance the ACA.
Poor people generally don't have to file taxes.
Really poor people got medicare. Plenty who of Americans who weren't poor enough didn't get any such coverage till the ACA. And I'll remind you, the GOP always wanted to cut Medicare coverage for the extreme poor, and punish "those lazy leaches."


People who live meager paycheck to paycheck are poor and they do have to file taxes. And if they can't afford $2500 a year for $7500 deductible obamacare they get fined $650 - then multiply that exponentially for those who have dependents.

The rest is the rabbit hole of it was a republican plan so it's mostly their fault, while at the same time saying the republicans never wanted there to be healthcare plan.


People living paycheck to paycheck are the modern day middle class. I'm talking about people who couldn't survive without public support, and those hovering near the poverty line.
The ACA was based on a Republican plan dreamed up by the Heritage Foundation, which is hardly a liberal organization, and is very similar to Romneycare in Massachusetts. So, yes, it was based on a Republican plan. I've stated this more than once.


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EzraS
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14 Apr 2019, 2:35 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
People living paycheck to paycheck are the modern day middle class. I'm talking about people who couldn't survive without public support, and those hovering near the poverty line.
The ACA was based on a Republican plan dreamed up by the Heritage Foundation, which is hardly a liberal organization, and is very similar to Romneycare in Massachusetts. So, yes, it was based on a Republican plan. I've stated this more than once.


So someone working a menial job and barely making ends meet is middle class because he's not asking for food stamps?

Whoever is or isn't to blame for obamacare, I'm happy for all those who won't have their hard earned money stolen next year because they can't afford it.



Last edited by EzraS on 14 Apr 2019, 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kraichgauer
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14 Apr 2019, 2:43 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
People living paycheck to paycheck are the modern day middle class. I'm talking about people who couldn't survive without public support, and those hovering near the poverty line.
The ACA was based on a Republican plan dreamed up by the Heritage Foundation, which is hardly a liberal organization, and is very similar to Romneycare in Massachusetts. So, yes, it was based on a Republican plan. I've stated this more than once.


So someone working a menial job and barely making ends meet is middle class because he's not asking for food stamps?


Let's face it, the middle class has seen better days.


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EzraS
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14 Apr 2019, 2:46 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
People living paycheck to paycheck are the modern day middle class. I'm talking about people who couldn't survive without public support, and those hovering near the poverty line.
The ACA was based on a Republican plan dreamed up by the Heritage Foundation, which is hardly a liberal organization, and is very similar to Romneycare in Massachusetts. So, yes, it was based on a Republican plan. I've stated this more than once.


So someone working a menial job and barely making ends meet is middle class because he's not asking for food stamps?


Let's face it, the middle class has seen better days.


I think you believe anyone who's not on welfare is middle class and should carry everyone else.

And whoever is or isn't to blame for obamacare, I'm happy for all those who won't have their hard earned money stolen next year because they can't afford it.

I have to say I'm probably more sympathetic to the poor schlep who takes a bus to a low paying job to afford a cheap room and food.



Kraichgauer
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14 Apr 2019, 3:00 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
People living paycheck to paycheck are the modern day middle class. I'm talking about people who couldn't survive without public support, and those hovering near the poverty line.
The ACA was based on a Republican plan dreamed up by the Heritage Foundation, which is hardly a liberal organization, and is very similar to Romneycare in Massachusetts. So, yes, it was based on a Republican plan. I've stated this more than once.


So someone working a menial job and barely making ends meet is middle class because he's not asking for food stamps?


Let's face it, the middle class has seen better days.


I think you believe anyone who's not on welfare is middle class and should carry everyone else.

And whoever is or isn't to blame for obamacare, I'm happy for all those who won't have their hard earned money stolen next year because they can't afford it.


What is it with you conservatives thinking taxation is theft?
No, I think the rich should chip in with the more affluent middle class and help the less fortunate. Besides, what's wrong with helping someone else in need? And if you don't think the needy should get public assistance, then you should be insisting business drop their standard model of working as few employees as possible for as long as they can with as low pay as they can get away with. Why not just hire people with good wages and benefits so they can make a living, instead of the emphasis being on business making loads of money?


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EzraS
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14 Apr 2019, 3:03 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
People living paycheck to paycheck are the modern day middle class. I'm talking about people who couldn't survive without public support, and those hovering near the poverty line.
The ACA was based on a Republican plan dreamed up by the Heritage Foundation, which is hardly a liberal organization, and is very similar to Romneycare in Massachusetts. So, yes, it was based on a Republican plan. I've stated this more than once.


So someone working a menial job and barely making ends meet is middle class because he's not asking for food stamps?


Let's face it, the middle class has seen better days.


I think you believe anyone who's not on welfare is middle class and should carry everyone else.

And whoever is or isn't to blame for obamacare, I'm happy for all those who won't have their hard earned money stolen next year because they can't afford it.


What is it with you conservatives thinking taxation is theft?
No, I think the rich should chip in with the more affluent middle class and help the less fortunate. Besides, what's wrong with helping someone else in need? And if you don't think the needy should get public assistance, then you should be insisting business drop their standard model of working as few employees as possible for as long as they can with as low pay as they can get away with. Why not just hire people with good wages and benefits so they can make a living, instead of the emphasis being on business making loads of money?


Making obamacare mandatory and then fining hard working non-welfare poor people hundreds of dollars for not being able to afford it should be considered theft by most anyone.

You would too if you had to fork out hundreds in fines instead of getting a nice subsidy.



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14 Apr 2019, 4:30 am

Winning the nomination and winning the general election is not the same thing.

There has been a whole lot of buzz about a poll that shows that twitter misrepresents democrats, that twitter is far more “woke” then Democrats in general. I have little doubt this is true but Democrats primary voters and caucus goers are not Democrats in general. The nomination process often produces the more “extreme” candidate. While the “woke” part of the party may be a minority most of the Democratic candidates are acting just as fearful of their base as Republicans are with Trump’s base endorsing in some way the Green New Wish List, reparations etc.

The theory that at the end of the day the dems will nominate a “moderate” is bolstered not only by this poll mentioned above but a number of polls saying the number 1 priority is beating Trump. The idea is that woke democrats will sell out their principles and vote for a moderate because they believe a moderate has the best chance to beat Trump. There are two problems with this line of thinking. The voting is months away. Once the primary season is underway things will be said and feelings hurt making it impossible for some to back the party standard barer. Also this theory goes by the questionable assumption the the woke wing of the party believe that nominating a “corporate” democrat is the best way to beat Trump.

Normally this would all be interesting but with the stakes so high this is frightining.


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14 Apr 2019, 9:34 am

Antrax wrote:
The democrats would be far better off nominating someone slightly left of center than Bernie Sanders."

Agree, I don't think Sanders can beat Trump.

1. Sanders wants to get rid of everyone's health care.

2. He wants to raise new taxes on poor and middle class people.

3. He calls himself the pejorative label "Socialist".


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