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Pepe
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12 May 2019, 2:52 am

breaks0 wrote:

Pepe: So you're a pacifist, right? Well that's fine, I can respect the principle at least. But it's completely impractical in fighting fascists who purposely target vulnerable populations here in the States, just as Tarrant did in NZ at that mosque and as all white nationalists here do b/c they're goal is an apartheid type of society. It really isn't that hard to understand. As to why Antifa uses violence against them? B/c that's self defense, that's what Antifa does, in the States at least. And I can tell you to cite one example, Charlottesville, there are several African American activists who were there, maybe most famously Cornell West and he says here how Antifa literally saved their lives: https://www.democracynow.org/2017/8/14/ ... mon_clergy


RE: your link.
Was anyone actually hurt?
From what I read it was a case of people fearing they were going to be hurt.
Please clarify.

I don't see the same problem here in Australia.
To the contrary.
The problem we have here is the far left acting like thugs.

Alt. right are considered social misfits, by and large, even by most moderate conservatives, I believe.
I don't think the same can be said about the "alt." left, from a left-wing point of view.

Conservatives over here don't initiate physical aggression that I am aware of.
They generally create rational dialogue, disseminate information about the anti-social behaviour of the far left, which in turn puts a spotlight on left-wing fascist activity and hopefully influences public opinion to combat the problem.
Time will tell if this is enough in countering thuggish behaviour here.

breaks0 wrote:
This isn't child's play man, at all. I have no time or interest in dialogue w/fascists or white nationalists. I want their organizations broken up, crushed and buried into the dustbin of history and if their members harm vulnerable populations (which is the principle terrorist threat in the US, has been for at least a decade) I want them jailed for a long ass time till they reform themselves.


So taking the law in your own hands (breaking it) is something of which you are comfortable?

Many conservatives here in Australia feel the same way about the far left due to their engaging in intimidation and worse.
Physical attacks, death threats against primary individuals and their families, etc.
Far left-wing activists here in Australia are running amok.
But encouraging other anti-social behaviours will only encourage the escalation of more anti-social behaviour, surely.

As I have said, I am a pacifist and an intellectual.
If I let my inner reptile gain dominance, I will be the ultimate loser.
And society will have lost a very precious gift. :mrgreen:


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RushKing
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12 May 2019, 7:52 am

Pepe wrote:
I can't see: "All politics is violence at the end of the day"
I live in Australia, remember.
So are you going to explain yourself now?
Do you agree (with your own statement?).

Yes, politics determines the distribution of power and removal of choice.

For example; when a government enacts and enforces a law, it's deciding who will be targets of police violence.
Pepe wrote:
I gave you an example where I created a context.
Do *you* think all politics is equal?

No, different politics have different effects on the world.



Daniel89
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12 May 2019, 7:59 am

Pepe wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Hmmm.
I don't know much about Antifa, hence my starting this thread.
I have only known it in a bad light.
So the violent protestors I have seen in the media are the extreme elements of the "non-movement".

RE the video:
Sorry m8, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
And encouraging violence for good (in this context) is an oxymoron and only is utilised by morons, imnsho.
It just makes you as bad as the baddies.

But this is coming from a pacifist.

All politics is violence at the end of the day. Do you think all politics is equal?


Show me how you think: "All politics is violence at the end of the day"?
Erm.
Please. :mrgreen:

"Do you think all politics is equal?"
Strange question. :scratch:
What context are you using?

Some political movements cater to more emotional people.
Some to the more rational amongst us.
I have said this many times.
Am I near the ballpark?


All politics is violence because the government is violence.

In a democracy the government is meant to be the legitimate form of violence. If someone kills someone the government uses violence to capture them and then hold them against their will.



Biscuitman
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12 May 2019, 10:00 am

Don't know much about Antifa but they come across as an online bogeyman for some who will claim any crowd at all behaving how they don't like are them.

The behaviour of some online people who are against antifa, including on here, make me question whether they are really that much of a problem tbh.



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12 May 2019, 12:17 pm

Biscuitman wrote:
Don't know much about Antifa but they come across as an online bogeyman for some who will claim any crowd at all behaving how they don't like are them.

The behaviour of some online people who are against antifa, including on here, make me question whether they are really that much of a problem tbh.


Antifa is short for Antifascist Action, an anarchist group of which many, if not most, people espouse far-left political views.

If one goes by comment boards and social media, it's as if there's nothing between left anarchism and fascism.

I cannot support them or the fascists.


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Pepe
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13 May 2019, 3:32 am

I misunderstood what was said earlier.


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


Last edited by Pepe on 13 May 2019, 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Biscuitman
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13 May 2019, 3:41 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
Don't know much about Antifa but they come across as an online bogeyman for some who will claim any crowd at all behaving how they don't like are them.

The behaviour of some online people who are against antifa, including on here, make me question whether they are really that much of a problem tbh.


Antifa is short for Antifascist Action, an anarchist group of which many, if not most, people espouse far-left political views.

If one goes by comment boards and social media, it's as if there's nothing between left anarchism and fascism.

I cannot support them or the fascists.


I know what the name is meant to stand for but they are such an online bogeyman that it is hard to see them as a significant thing tbh.



Pepe
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13 May 2019, 3:58 am

RushKing wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I can't see: "All politics is violence at the end of the day"
I live in Australia, remember.
So are you going to explain yourself now?
Do you agree (with your own statement?).

Yes, politics determines the distribution of power and removal of choice.

For example; when a government enacts and enforces a law, it's deciding who will be targets of police violence.


I misunderstood you earlier.
I can see where you are coming from now.
But your way of thinking is rather foreign to me.
"Less conventional". :wink:

Quote:
Violence: Violence is "the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy."[2] Less conventional definitions are also used, such as the World Health Organization's definition of violence as "the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation."[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence


Edit:
You may have been a little mischievous to the following extent: :wink:
The thread I initiated was talking about Antifa which is perceived as a violent activist group.
This established the initial context/definition of the term "violence".

You then introduced a couple of questions I found odd.
In hindsight, I could speculate that the intention may even have been an attempt at mischievousness.
But to be sure, that is a "long bow to draw", so it will maintain the status of an inconclusive/unverifiable intellectual construct.

End of story.
Move along, people.
Nothing to see here. :mrgreen:


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


The_Walrus
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13 May 2019, 2:22 pm

Difficult to be opposed to Antifa when the opposition is literal fascists.

I think their ideology is sometimes somewhat simplistic, but in the grand scheme of things we need people who are prepared to stand up to fascists. Similarly, I don't like much of what Winston Churchill stood for, but given that he gave Hitler and Mussolini a good kicking, history has to remember him somewhat fondly.

I'd also note that attempts to characterise these people as "left-wing fascists" are equally as simplistic - as shown by the complete failure of anyone to actually draw any pertinent similarities between antifascism and fascism. There are meaningful criticisms to be made of these groups but "they're like fascists" is not one of them. Likewise, I think it's quite telling that there is a strong degree of overlap between "people who are opposed to ethnic nationalism being compared to fascism" and "people who are happy to compare antifascism to fascism".



Daniel89
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13 May 2019, 2:50 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Difficult to be opposed to Antifa when the opposition is literal fascists.

I think their ideology is sometimes somewhat simplistic, but in the grand scheme of things we need people who are prepared to stand up to fascists. Similarly, I don't like much of what Winston Churchill stood for, but given that he gave Hitler and Mussolini a good kicking, history has to remember him somewhat fondly.

I'd also note that attempts to characterise these people as "left-wing fascists" are equally as simplistic - as shown by the complete failure of anyone to actually draw any pertinent similarities between antifascism and fascism. There are meaningful criticisms to be made of these groups but "they're like fascists" is not one of them. Likewise, I think it's quite telling that there is a strong degree of overlap between "people who are opposed to ethnic nationalism being compared to fascism" and "people who are happy to compare antifascism to fascism".


Sometimes the people they are opposed to are fascists but the majority of them are just right wing/centrist. They even attacked a Bernie Sanders supporter because he had an American flag which they considered fascism.



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13 May 2019, 2:59 pm

Pepe wrote:
Darmok wrote:
Antifa, a.k.a. violent Communist guerillas.


Aren't they: Left-wing fascists?
Hence the "irony" definition supplied. :mrgreen:


They can be violent thugs without being fascists. There's no irony in pointing out that radicals who are worried about being assaulted by their opponents tend to prepare themselves for the potential need to engage in violence. Perhaps if the far-right weren't so violent their opponents wouldn't find themselves needing to be prepared to deal with violence.


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The_Walrus
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13 May 2019, 3:04 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Darmok wrote:
Antifa, a.k.a. violent Communist guerillas.


Aren't they: Left-wing fascists?
Hence the "irony" definition supplied. :mrgreen:


They can be violent thugs without being fascists. There's no irony in pointing out that radicals who are worried about being assaulted by their opponents tend to prepare themselves for the potential need to engage in violence. Perhaps if the far-right weren't so violent their opponents wouldn't find themselves needing to be prepared to deal with violence.

This.

In America fascists are killing people on the street. I support the right to life, so I support self-defence against fascism.

Having said that I think the use of overt violence has to be proportionate to the immediate threat. And generally I'd say the anti-fascist movement in contemporary America has done a good job of that. I'm aware of many people who have been killed by fascists, but none who have been beaten to death by anti-fascists.



Pepe
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13 May 2019, 7:50 pm

Daniel89 wrote:

Sometimes the people they are opposed to are fascists but the majority of them are just right wing/centrist. They even attacked a Bernie Sanders supporter because he had an American flag which they considered fascism.


We don't have Antifa here in Australia since it is, I believe, a uniquely Amerikan organisation.
Correct me if I am wrong, please.
But we have people like those in Antifa who do exactly what you have said.

People who have this mindset are demonstrably anti-freedom of speech and thought of even moderates simply because they believe in a differing set of principles.

I think it safe to say that most, if not all members of Antifa embrace self-righteousness, virtue signalling and are addicted to their biological chemicals which create emotional gluttony.

Quote:
Sanctimony, or a sense of righteous outrage, can feel so intense and delicious that many people actively seek to return to it, again and again. Moreover, as Westin et.al. have found, this trait crosses all boundaries of ideology.
http://www.davidbrin.com/nonfiction/addiction.html


Disclosure:
There isn't a great deal of study in this area at this point in time.


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


Pepe
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13 May 2019, 8:05 pm

May I suggest: Rather than talking about the number of murders that the alt. right have perpetrated in Amerika, people supply sources/links?

I don't disbelieve what people are saying, but evidence speaks stronger/louder than unverified words.

Recently there was a link supplied which indicated that violence by neo-Nazis was inevitable had their not been intervention.
When I drilled into the article I discovered that ultimately there was no physical harm.
And it is unverifiable that it would have eventuated without this intervention.
There was "only" the fear of possible harm.
It seems the media were up to their old alarmist tricks in that instance.

BTW, I am aware of lone wolf supremacist murders.
How prevalent are group attacks by neo-Nazis?

Also, let me once again emphasise that Amerika is not Australia and that social conditions vary in degree.


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


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13 May 2019, 8:34 pm

Pepe wrote:
We don't have Antifa here in Australia since it is, I believe, a uniquely Amerikan organisation.
Correct me if I am wrong, please.

Quite the contrary, I believe. Antifa is a European communist guerrilla organization that goes all the way back to WWII. Its infiltration into the US is extremely recent.


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