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Pepe
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14 May 2019, 12:28 am

Darmok wrote:
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We don't have Antifa here in Australia since it is, I believe, a uniquely Amerikan organisation.
Correct me if I am wrong, please.

Quite the contrary, I believe. Antifa is a European communist guerrilla organization that goes all the way back to WWII. Its infiltration into the US is extremely recent.


Appreciated.

But. :mrgreen:
No links to verify what you said?
Dude. 8O

I'll Google: "Origins of Antifa". <shrug>

Quote:
Antifa traces its roots to the 1920s and ’30s, when militant leftists battled fascists in the streets of Germany, Italy, and Spain. When fascism withered after World War II, antifa did too. But in the ’70s and ’80s, neo-Nazi skinheads began to infiltrate Britain’s punk scene. After the Berlin Wall fell, neo-Nazism also gained prominence in Germany. In response, a cadre of young leftists, including many anarchists and punk fans, revived the tradition of street-level antifascism.

In the late ’80s, left-wing punk fans in the United States began following suit, though they initially called their groups Anti-Racist Action, on the theory that Americans would be more familiar with fighting racism than fascism. According to Mark Bray, the author of the forthcoming Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook, these activists toured with popular alternative bands in the ’90s, trying to ensure that neo-Nazis did not recruit their fans. In 2002, they disrupted a speech by the head of the World Church of the Creator, a white-supremacist group in Pennsylvania; 25 people were arrested in the resulting brawl.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ft/534192/


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Pepe
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14 May 2019, 12:35 am

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Part of Antifa’s mission is to establish, as Bray puts it, “the historical continuity between different eras of far-right violence and the many forms of collective self-defense that it has necessitated across the globe over the past century.” To this end, the first half of his book is a somewhat rushed history of anti-Fascist groups. The progenitors of Antifa, in this account, were the German and Italian leftists who, following the First World War, banded together to fight proto-Fascist gangs. In Italy, these leftists gathered under the banner of Arditi del Popolo (“the People’s Daring Ones”), while in Weimar Germany, groups like Antifaschistische Aktion, from which Antifa takes its name, evolved from paramilitary factions of existing political parties. Bray moves swiftly to the failure of anti-Fascists in the Spanish Civil War, then races through the second half of the twentieth century. In the late seventies, the punk and hardcore scenes became the primary sites of open conflict between leftists and neo-Nazis; that milieu prefigures much of the style and strategy now associated with the anti-Fascist movement. In the Netherlands and Germany, a group of leftist squatters known as Autonomen pioneered the Black Bloc approach: wearing all-black outfits and masks to help participants evade prosecution and retaliation. Bray reaches the present with his description of “Pinstripe Fascists,” such as Geert Wilders, and the rise of new far-right parties and groups in both Europe and America. The book flits between countries and across decades; analysis is sparse. The message is that Antifa will fight Fascists wherever they appear, and by any means necessary. https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-tu ... -of-antifa


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kraftiekortie
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14 May 2019, 2:11 am

I don’t like the “K” because that implies that every American is an as*hole racist.



mr_bigmouth_502
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14 May 2019, 3:43 am

To use a British expression, we didn't invite the Nazis for tea and scones in WWII. Why should we do so now? f**k fascism.


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Biscuitman
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14 May 2019, 5:16 am

Fascism seems to be quite in vogue in 2019.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



Daniel89
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14 May 2019, 6:53 am

Pepe wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:

Sometimes the people they are opposed to are fascists but the majority of them are just right wing/centrist. They even attacked a Bernie Sanders supporter because he had an American flag which they considered fascism.


We don't have Antifa here in Australia since it is, I believe, a uniquely Amerikan organisation.
Correct me if I am wrong, please.
But we have people like those in Antifa who do exactly what you have said.

People who have this mindset are demonstrably anti-freedom of speech and thought of even moderates simply because they believe in a differing set of principles.

I think it safe to say that most, if not all members of Antifa embrace self-righteousness, virtue signalling and are addicted to their biological chemicals which create emotional gluttony.

Quote:
Sanctimony, or a sense of righteous outrage, can feel so intense and delicious that many people actively seek to return to it, again and again. Moreover, as Westin et.al. have found, this trait crosses all boundaries of ideology.
http://www.davidbrin.com/nonfiction/addiction.html


Disclosure:
There isn't a great deal of study in this area at this point in time.


We have them in the UK but they are not as violent as they are in the states.



Pepe
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14 May 2019, 7:22 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don’t like the “K” because that implies that every American is an as*hole racist.


"as*hole racist".
That is pure speculation.
And it is wrong.
Since when have you become a mind-reader?

So you are associating the "K" with the "KKK"?
If so, that is your misinterpretation.
The German word for Ameri*a is spelt with a "K".
And it was created well before the creation of the KKK.
How do you reconcile that?
If I am misinterpreting where you are coming from, let me know.

You can't expect me to change my life for other people superimposing their misunderstandings.
This is really bizarre.

This has gone beyond a joke, and while I am not completely pissed off, I am finding your behaviour tedious.

Read my lips:
You are destroying what I considered a casual friendship with you.
In the past, I have always tried to be supportive of you.
You are putting me in a position where I need to re-assess how I view you.

No one is going to stifle my freedom of expression if I am working within the rules.
I will not be intimidated by something that is imagined by you.

Bizzare. 8O


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Pepe
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14 May 2019, 7:29 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:

Sometimes the people they are opposed to are fascists but the majority of them are just right wing/centrist. They even attacked a Bernie Sanders supporter because he had an American flag which they considered fascism.


We don't have Antifa here in Australia since it is, I believe, a uniquely Amerikan organisation.
Correct me if I am wrong, please.
But we have people like those in Antifa who do exactly what you have said.

People who have this mindset are demonstrably anti-freedom of speech and thought of even moderates simply because they believe in a differing set of principles.

I think it safe to say that most, if not all members of Antifa embrace self-righteousness, virtue signalling and are addicted to their biological chemicals which create emotional gluttony.

Quote:
Sanctimony, or a sense of righteous outrage, can feel so intense and delicious that many people actively seek to return to it, again and again. Moreover, as Westin et.al. have found, this trait crosses all boundaries of ideology.
http://www.davidbrin.com/nonfiction/addiction.html


Disclosure:
There isn't a great deal of study in this area at this point in time.


We have them in the UK but they are not as violent as they are in the states.


Yes, Amerika is a different "kettle of fish" and needs to be viewed in a different light.
I am in the process if coming to grips with understanding the variant cultures.
And may I point out, it isn't a question of one right answer universally.

<investigation mode maintained> :wink:


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Pepe
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14 May 2019, 7:39 pm

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
To use a British expression, we didn't invite the Nazis for tea and scones in WWII. Why should we do so now? f**k fascism.


Yes, f**k fascism.
Any autistic person who supports fascism supports discrimination against themselves.
I think I have made my position clear?

We are fortunate here in Australia, and apparently in the UK also.
We don't have the extreme social violence that is evident in Amerika.
And in no way am I going to support a misguided policy of violence for violence here in Australia.
A pox on both groups of fanatics on either side of the great divide.

Erm.
Have a nice day. :wink:


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kraftiekortie
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14 May 2019, 8:20 pm

I say f**k Fascism, too.

I'm not trying to take away your freedom of expression, Mr. Pepe. I'm not that presumptuous. It's not the way I roll.

I just don't like "Amerika"---that's all. I'm allowed to "express" that. That's "freedom of expression." If my best friend said that, I'd still be vociferous about my dislike of it. And I wouldn't care what he/she thought about it.

Maybe I should reflect upon what you said...maybe I was wrong to be so vociferous.



techstepgenr8tion
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14 May 2019, 8:55 pm

I think the thing that bothered me most about them is that they were marching in early 2017 well in advance of any major white nationalist events and spent most of their time attacking people in places like Berkeley who were attending center-right events. It would be one thing if all of this started coming up as a reaction to Charlottesville but it seems like something closer to the opposite was happening.


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14 May 2019, 10:12 pm

Neo Nazis and other fascists deserve to get their asses beat. They've killed a good number of people through mass shootings and whatnot, so whooping their asses would be justified.


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14 May 2019, 11:40 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think the thing that bothered me most about them is that they were marching in early 2017 well in advance of any major white nationalist events and spent most of their time attacking people in places like Berkeley who were attending center-right events. It would be one thing if all of this started coming up as a reaction to Charlottesville but it seems like something closer to the opposite was happening.


Charlottesville wasn't the first time alt-right thugs instigated violence and needed confronted, it's just an especially large example. I'm not sure whether or not 'major' is even relevant, because they were still responding to violence from the far-right even when those events were smaller - why would it be relevant that they the started confronting them when their meetings/events/public actions were of a smaller scale?


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funeralxempire
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14 May 2019, 11:42 pm

Pepe wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
To use a British expression, we didn't invite the Nazis for tea and scones in WWII. Why should we do so now? f**k fascism.


Yes, f**k fascism.
Any autistic person who supports fascism supports discrimination against themselves.
I think I have made my position clear?

We are fortunate here in Australia, and apparently in the UK also.
We don't have the extreme social violence that is evident in Amerika.
And in no way am I going to support a misguided policy of violence for violence here in Australia.
A pox on both groups of fanatics on either side of the great divide.

Erm.
Have a nice day. :wink:


Be grateful violent far-right activists aren't a problem in Australia, if they were you'd be more likely to appreciate the solution.


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15 May 2019, 3:00 am

I don't support fascism but I don't agree with some of the self titled 'anti facist groups'. Sending threats is not ok, that is not a protest tactic, thats a terrorism tactic.

I don't agree with terrorism, I agree with protest...I don't agree with terrorism. At least not now, perhaps if things get to the point of a mad max type post apocalyptic situation I'd consider the idea of more violent tactics for survival..but antifa doesn't help things by acting like fascists themselves. I mean yeah go after unapologetic racists ruin their reputation or whatever....but its nonsense to dig around for anything and everything they can find on anyone. I mean when I was a teen I had a dumb nazi phase I was even talking to neo-nazis online(I am ashamed of myself but I was in a dark place so I wasn't really thinking clearly either). but I mean its like they could potentially dig that stuff up on me from when I was 17 and claim that I am a horrible nazi. So not sure their tactics are the right approach, since plenty of people get mixed up in bad thinking but people change and sometimes for the better.



techstepgenr8tion
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15 May 2019, 5:57 am

funeralxempire wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think the thing that bothered me most about them is that they were marching in early 2017 well in advance of any major white nationalist events and spent most of their time attacking people in places like Berkeley who were attending center-right events. It would be one thing if all of this started coming up as a reaction to Charlottesville but it seems like something closer to the opposite was happening.


Charlottesville wasn't the first time alt-right thugs instigated violence and needed confronted, it's just an especially large example. I'm not sure whether or not 'major' is even relevant, because they were still responding to violence from the far-right even when those events were smaller - why would it be relevant that they the started confronting them when their meetings/events/public actions were of a smaller scale?

Maybe rephrasing the question - do you have any instances, ie. news articles or anything else validating, where antifa was doing something other than attacking center-right figures before the beginning of 2017 in the US or where, in this relevant time range and before these attacks, that there was alt-right activity worthy of responding to, even in a confused manner (ie. attacking center-right), in this manner?

If I was only caring about 'large scale' your right - it would be a perverse point. I'm just asking, in the US, was there anything at all that justified this sort of behavior.


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