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Antifa. Anti-fascist? WTF?

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The_Walrus
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16 May 2019, 2:55 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
This Atlantic article seems to suggest that the uptick of Antifa activity was due to nothing more or other than Donald Trump's election:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ft/534192/

If that's the case it doesn't look good for them.

Given that Mr Trump has long advocated for violence against both the free press and his political opponents and ran on an explicitly discriminatory platform (most obviously, talking about discriminating on the grounds of religion for whether someone is allowed to enter the United States), while bearing all the marks of a fascist except for the ability to dedicate himself to a cause, and his rise also lead to a big uprise in confidence for other people with far-right views. Yes, opposition to Trumpism is entirely consistent with ethical anti-fascism.

Donald Trump is by no reasonable estimation a figure of the "centre-right". Marco Rubio is of the centre-right. Ted Cruz ran to the right of Marco Rubio. Donald Trump ran far to the right of Ted Cruz.

It is worth noting that the American centre-right has drifted significantly further right in the past three years. Someone like Lindsay Graham used to be considered a moderate who could work with Democrats and who called Trump a "kook" who is "unfit for office", now he's just a Trump lackey. And he's far from alone - most Republicans in Congress used to oppose Trump, now they support him. It used to be that Rick Santorum was a hilarious outlier, but now he's milquetoast.



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16 May 2019, 3:17 pm

Ted Cruz said he would "carpet bomb" Syria where as Trump has just dropped a few token bombs to keep the media off his back.

Rubio is a deranged psychopath who has threatened a Venezuelan serviceman's family on Twitter.

Right and left wing are just false constructs. There's right and wrong.


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16 May 2019, 3:37 pm

I’d rather live in Cuba, Venezuela, or even North Korea. At least people can get abortions in those countries, and there’s no oppression or bullying of LGBT people because in two of those countries, religion is banned.


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16 May 2019, 4:03 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
I’d rather live in Cuba, Venezuela, or even North Korea. At least people can get abortions in those countries, and there’s no oppression or bullying of LGBT people because in two of those countries, religion is banned.


Religion isn't the only source for homophobia. I know Cuba is fairly liberal towards LGBTQ peoples, but I'm not certain about Venezuela. North Korea isn't accepting, they'd just have you killed for 'degenerate bourgeoisie behaviour', just like the PRC and USSR** were known for.

**Worth noting, the Soviet Union was initially more tolerant of LGB individuals than any of the western democracies but first the Soviets reversed those policies (Soviet society wasn't tolerant, only the political structure was) and later on the western liberal democracies starting being less repressed and repressive towards queer individuals.


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techstepgenr8tion
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16 May 2019, 5:18 pm

Walrus wrote:
Given that Mr Trump has long advocated for violence against both the free press and his political opponents and ran on an explicitly discriminatory platform (most obviously, talking about discriminating on the grounds of religion for whether someone is allowed to enter the United States), while bearing all the marks of a fascist except for the ability to dedicate himself to a cause, and his rise also lead to a big uprise in confidence for other people with far-right views. Yes, opposition to Trumpism is entirely consistent with ethical anti-fascism.

Donald Trump is by no reasonable estimation a figure of the "centre-right". Marco Rubio is of the centre-right. Ted Cruz ran to the right of Marco Rubio. Donald Trump ran far to the right of Ted Cruz.

It is worth noting that the American centre-right has drifted significantly further right in the past three years. Someone like Lindsay Graham used to be considered a moderate who could work with Democrats and who called Trump a "kook" who is "unfit for office", now he's just a Trump lackey. And he's far from alone - most Republicans in Congress used to oppose Trump, now they support him. It used to be that Rick Santorum was a hilarious outlier, but now he's milquetoast.


So in other words AntiFa was doing the right thing. Point noted.


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Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 16 May 2019, 10:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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16 May 2019, 5:41 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
I’d rather live in Cuba, Venezuela, or even North Korea. At least people can get abortions in those countries, and there’s no oppression or bullying of LGBT people because in two of those countries, religion is banned.


Cuba was notorious for jailing LGBT folks just for being LGBT folks for decades. They may have loosened up in the last 20 years. Am not as up on Cuba as I was back in the Eighties when mom was hired to make book cover art for an anti castro pressure group.

It would surprise me if Kim Jong Un was especially tolerant of LGBT folks, but even if he is, and LGBT folks are equal to everyone else in North Korea- it just means that they are equally bad off starving prisoners of his regime as everyone else. Kinda cold comfort.



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16 May 2019, 6:02 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Neo Nazis and other fascists deserve to get their asses beat. They've killed a good number of people through mass shootings and whatnot, so whooping their asses would be justified.


Do you feel the same about Socialists? Muslims? Christians?

That is why in the long term this is not a good idea despite that they more than deserve it.


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16 May 2019, 6:32 pm

If we don’t outlaw religion, the whole country will go the way of Alabama.


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16 May 2019, 8:06 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
I’d rather live in Cuba, Venezuela, or even North Korea. At least people can get abortions in those countries, and there’s no oppression or bullying of LGBT people because in two of those countries, religion is banned.


Sorry to see you go. :( :mrgreen:


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16 May 2019, 8:54 pm

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Neo Nazis and other fascists deserve to get their asses beat. They've killed a good number of people through mass shootings and whatnot, so whooping their asses would be justified.


By your reasoning:
Some hardline Muslims are terrorists, therefore all hardline Muslims are terrorists.

<change of tack>

There is an additional problem.
Some/many left-wing extremists also attack moderates who's opinions they don't like either.
This collateral damage is a major concern.
And who defines where the line is between alt. right philosophy and conservative thinking?

The problem with some far left extremists is that, like some of the alt. right, they are emotionalistic knuckledraggers who couldn't find 2 brain cells to rub together.
They are fed and ruled by their endorphins and dopamines.
In essence, they are simple organic drug junkies.

Do we really want to encourage troglodytes who can't distinguish between alt. right from moderate conservatives who are simply expressing their point of view?
Do we really want these quasi-humans to join the "conversation" without a leash? 8O

I thank you.
<steps off soap box> :mrgreen:

There's nothing wrong with being a Muslim. There IS something wrong with being a Nazi or a white supremacist.


Hmmm.
Interesting how you changed the context.
Interesting how you dropped my qualifier of: "Hardline".
Straw man stuff? :scratch:

If "hardline" = extremist.
And some/most Muslim extremists believe in the concept that all infidels should be killed. (ISIS)
Then both examples of extremism are wrong, surely.

May I suggest you be extra vigilant in inadvertently changing the context when you converse with me.
I will pick up on that.
It is my specialty. :mrgreen:

Pax. :wink:


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


techstepgenr8tion
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16 May 2019, 10:16 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
So in other words AntiFa was doing the right thing. Point noted.

I don't know whether Noam Chomsky is still in favor at all, the overton window seems to have moved passed him and he's looking center center-right more and more every day against the backdrop, however he had some choice comments about AntiFa. Who knows, he might be considered a conservative fossil in the current climate but I figure at least older millenials, gen x'ers, and baby boomers remember when he was considered 'Godfather of the Left'.


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17 May 2019, 1:00 am

Daniel89 wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Neo Nazis and other fascists deserve to get their asses beat. They've killed a good number of people through mass shootings and whatnot, so whooping their asses would be justified.


Do you feel the same about Socialists? Muslims? Christians?

Hell no. There are bad Muslims, Christians, and socialists out there, but there's nothing wrong with being any of those things. Now, being a Nazi, on the other hand, means that you stand for racism and other forms of discrimination, and against democracy and human rights.

Pepe wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Neo Nazis and other fascists deserve to get their asses beat. They've killed a good number of people through mass shootings and whatnot, so whooping their asses would be justified.


By your reasoning:
Some hardline Muslims are terrorists, therefore all hardline Muslims are terrorists.

<change of tack>

There is an additional problem.
Some/many left-wing extremists also attack moderates who's opinions they don't like either.
This collateral damage is a major concern.
And who defines where the line is between alt. right philosophy and conservative thinking?

The problem with some far left extremists is that, like some of the alt. right, they are emotionalistic knuckledraggers who couldn't find 2 brain cells to rub together.
They are fed and ruled by their endorphins and dopamines.
In essence, they are simple organic drug junkies.

Do we really want to encourage troglodytes who can't distinguish between alt. right from moderate conservatives who are simply expressing their point of view?
Do we really want these quasi-humans to join the "conversation" without a leash? 8O

I thank you.
<steps off soap box> :mrgreen:

There's nothing wrong with being a Muslim. There IS something wrong with being a Nazi or a white supremacist.


Hmmm.
Interesting how you changed the context.
Interesting how you dropped my qualifier of: "Hardline".
Straw man stuff? :scratch:

If "hardline" = extremist.
And some/most Muslim extremists believe in the concept that all infidels should be killed. (ISIS)
Then both examples of extremism are wrong, surely.

May I suggest you be extra vigilant in inadvertently changing the context when you converse with me.
I will pick up on that.
It is my specialty. :mrgreen:

Pax. :wink:

Some Muslims happen to be extremists, I get that. I'm not against Muslims, but I am against extremism.


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17 May 2019, 4:00 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
I’d rather live in Cuba, Venezuela, or even North Korea. At least people can get abortions in those countries, and there’s no oppression or bullying of LGBT people because in two of those countries, religion is banned.


Cuba was notorious for jailing LGBT folks just for being LGBT folks for decades. They may have loosened up in the last 20 years. Am not as up on Cuba as I was back in the Eighties when mom was hired to make book cover art for an anti castro pressure group.


Cuba has softened on issues like this. There's a good chance they know their support outside of their own borders depends on not pissing off sympathizers, who at this point are mostly pro-LGBTQ.


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18 May 2019, 7:47 pm

Quote:
What distinguishes Antifa from other far-left groups is their stated intention to use violence where they see fit, and an existential opposition to far-right movements.

"They subscribe to the idea that violence against the far-right is permissible," says Roose. "The two groups [far-right groups and Antifa] feed off one another. The Antifa absolutely despises the far-right and the far-right absolutely hates the Antifa.

"There is a sort of reciprocity between the groups which appear more interested in targeting each other rather than in winning mainstream support." https://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/ita ... tors-peace


Quote:
Is Australia different?
Australia has its own history of far-right and -left movements, similar to those of European nations and the US where Antifa regularly clashes with far-right groups, but has its differences as well.

"We have a stronger and more centralized state apparatus than many states and a far more securitized public space than overseas particularly in the last 2 decades with the strengthening of security anti-terrorism legislation," says Roose.

Yet clashes still do occur, such as the 2016 'Battle of Coburg' in Melbourne, where a few dozen far-right and Antifa protestors clashed outside a local school.

"Coburg - traditionally a working class labor heartland - is going through a rapid process of gentrification," says Roose. "So there is tension between the higher income green-voting people moving in and the old working class that still owns a house there but struggle to buy groceries.

"It is a very symbolic ground for the Antifa and far-right clash." https://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/ita ... tors-peace


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


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18 May 2019, 7:56 pm

Quote:
Does the Antifa Flag Resemble a Nazi Flag?
A political group without an official flag has nonetheless been represented by many photoshopped ones. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/antifa-nazi-flags/


Image

Image

Was it deliberate irony that Antifa flags use the same colours as the swastika? :scratch:


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen: