Why do people assume the Democrats are socialists?

Page 1 of 3 [ 37 posts ] Go to page 1, 2, 3 Next

Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

13 Jun 2019, 2:53 am

PurpleReject wrote:

Because people don't actually know what socialism or communism really are, including many people who'd claim to be one or the other. It's an erroneously-used partisan slur.

How do you reconcile the violent history of Communism?

PurpleReject
Sea Gull

Joined: 13 May 2019
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 220
Location: California

13 Jun 2019, 4:17 pm

Pepe wrote:

PurpleReject wrote:

Because people don't actually know what socialism or communism really are, including many people who'd claim to be one or the other. It's an erroneously-used partisan slur.

How do you reconcile the violent history of Communism?

I'm not a Communist, so the real question is how do you relate the violent history of Communism to the American Democratic Party? Seriously, what does that have to do with anything this thread is about?

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,841
Location: Stendec

13 Jun 2019, 4:20 pm

No, the real question is "Why are you two arguing about red herrings when the topic has to do with why people assume Democrats are Socialists?"

:roll:

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,841
Location: Stendec

13 Jun 2019, 4:24 pm

PurpleReject wrote:

Because people don't actually know what socialism or communism really are.

Especially Bernie Sanders. He even defines Democratic Socialism as "a higher path, a path of compassion, justice and love" (Bernie Sanders, quoted 2019/06/12, in front of 400 supporters at The George Washington University in Washington, D.C.).

:roll:

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

PurpleReject
Sea Gull

Joined: 13 May 2019
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 220
Location: California

13 Jun 2019, 4:38 pm

Fnord wrote:

No, the real question is "Why are you two arguing about red herrings when the topic has to do with why people assume Democrats are Socialists?"

Um, it's actually a perfect example of how said debate is structured around ignorance and manipulative argumentative tactics, in this case a straw man argument. To "Why do people assume Democrats are socialists?", one of my reasons is that neither side fully understand the logistics of socialism or communism; the opposing side, assuming I'm arguing in favor of far-far-left politics, immediately leaps to the most extreme, tenuously connected exaggeration in an attempt to discredit my supposed viewpoints, in this case genocide. Textbook straw man argument.

Straw man is pretty much exactly the reason why the obnoxiously uninformed call Democrats socialists or Republicans fascists. You voted for Hillary? Well, clearly you love Stalin. You voted for Trump? Well, clearly you love Hitler. They attempt to draw parallels between the moderate and the extreme as means of slandering the other side. That is literally one of the answers to the question posed in the title.

Last edited by PurpleReject on 13 Jun 2019, 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PurpleReject
Sea Gull

Joined: 13 May 2019
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 220
Location: California

13 Jun 2019, 4:44 pm

Fnord wrote:

"Democratic socialism" is NOT socialism. If Democratic socialism were a person, it would just be a Democrat wearing a Che Guevara shirt they bought at the mall for $50. Bernie Sanders is still part of the same decrepit, broken system and is no different than any of the other dangerous warmongers he claims to be better than...he just uses the right buzzwords to get hip with the kids.

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 25,461
Location: Right over your left shoulder

13 Jun 2019, 4:47 pm

PurpleReject wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Democratic socialism is a form of socialism; social democracy is not. Sanders is a social democrat, even if he proclaims himself to be a democratic socialist.

_________________
Watching liberals try to solve societal problems without a systemic critique/class consciousness is like watching someone in the dark try to flip on the light switch, but they keep turning on the garbage disposal instead.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,841
Location: Stendec

13 Jun 2019, 4:49 pm

PurpleReject wrote:

Fnord wrote:

"Democratic socialism" is NOT socialism. If Democratic socialism were a person, it would just be a Democrat wearing a Che Guevara shirt they bought at the mall for $50. Bernie Sanders is still part of the same decrepit, broken system and is no different than any of the other dangerous warmongers he claims to be better than... he just uses the right buzzwords to get hip with the kids.

Well said! Although Sr. Guevara might be a tad miffed. :wink:

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,841
Location: Stendec

13 Jun 2019, 4:53 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

PurpleReject wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Democratic socialism is a form of socialism; social democracy is not. Sanders is a social democrat, even if he proclaims himself to be a democratic socialist.

In any case, I'll use the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of Socialism as a default working definition:

Socialism:
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
2b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 25,461
Location: Right over your left shoulder

13 Jun 2019, 4:58 pm

Fnord wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

PurpleReject wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Democratic socialism is a form of socialism; social democracy is not. Sanders is a social democrat, even if he proclaims himself to be a democratic socialist.

So, are we including anyone who supports any form of mixed market economy as a socialist, or are we conceding that one can advocate for a mixed market economy and not genuinely qualify a socialist?

The former would give an absurdly broad definition that would be in all intents and purposes useless; the other would basically disqualify the bulk of people who self-identify as socialists in America today.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,841
Location: Stendec

13 Jun 2019, 5:01 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

"We" are doing neither.

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 25,461
Location: Right over your left shoulder

13 Jun 2019, 5:11 pm

Fnord wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

"We" are doing neither.

Why would the participants in a conversation have any interest in having a functional definition of the topic being discussed? The definition you provided, if anything, makes a strong case that the term socialism is utterly useless because it either lumps together pretty much every economy on earth, or it results in bickering over at what point exactly a mixed economy finally is close enough to count. Either way, it's a word that's been watered down to the point of being a meaningless sound.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,841
Location: Stendec

13 Jun 2019, 8:20 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Fnord wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

"We" are doing neither.

"If you can't refute the facts, dismiss them as irrelevant." -- Attibuted to Joseph Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

13 Jun 2019, 8:49 pm

PurpleReject wrote:

Pepe wrote:

PurpleReject wrote:

Because people don't actually know what socialism or communism really are, including many people who'd claim to be one or the other. It's an erroneously-used partisan slur.

How do you reconcile the violent history of Communism?

OUCH!

You got me!
My bad.
I wasn't really paying attention because I have no skin in the game.
I'm from Oz. :wink:

That will teach me to go to bed when I am tired.

Fnord wrote:

No, the real question is "Why are you two arguing about red herrings when the topic has to do with why people assume Democrats are Socialists?"

:roll:

A very valid point.
I think I may have had a senior moment.

Apologies.

Pax. :wink:

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 25,461
Location: Right over your left shoulder

14 Jun 2019, 4:25 am

Fnord wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Fnord wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

"We" are doing neither.

"If you can't refute the facts, dismiss them as irrelevant." -- Attibuted to Joseph Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945

Let me know when and if you ever post some facts. :wink:

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,841
Location: Stendec

14 Jun 2019, 8:28 am

funeralxempire wrote:

Fnord wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Fnord wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

"We" are doing neither.

"If you can't refute the facts, dismiss them as irrelevant." -- Attibuted to Joseph Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945

Let me know when and if you ever post some facts.

Read the 2nd post in this thread. I posted all of the necessary facts then, after which you showed up with nothing to contribute.

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

Page 1 of 3 [ 37 posts ] Go to page 1, 2, 3 Next

Jump to:

Why do people assume the Democrats are socialists? Post Reply New Topic

Why do people assume the Democrats are socialists?