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Fnord
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18 Sep 2019, 3:02 pm

AngelRho wrote:
I'm not criticizing "The Method." I'm criticizing the idea that "The Method" is NOT dogma...
Riiiight ... do you even understand the difference?

"Dogma" is merely an unchanging doctrine (or body of doctrines) concerning faith or morals, formally stated and proclaimed by a religious institution as authoritative, yet without adequate grounds (e.g., valid empirical evidence) to support it.

"Scientific Method" is a set of evolving principles and self-correcting procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving (1) the recognition and formulation of a problem, (2) the collection of data through observation and experiment, and (3) the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

I see neither confluence nor conflation between these two concepts. The former is static ("Carved In Stone") and the latter is dynamic ("Ever-Changing").

Your assertion fails on first principles.

QED


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AngelRho
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18 Sep 2019, 6:49 pm

Fnord wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
I'm not criticizing "The Method." I'm criticizing the idea that "The Method" is NOT dogma...
[color=black]Riiiight ... do you even understand the difference?

"Dogma" is merely an unchanging doctrine (or body of doctrines) concerning faith or morals, formally stated and proclaimed by a religious institution as authoritative, yet without adequate grounds (e.g., valid empirical evidence) to support it.

Dogma is not strictly a religious thing. Dogma CAN logically be true. The key feature of dogma is whether it can be questioned. And it is false that the scientific method is accepted on logical grounds. If the acceptance of The Method isn’t based on logic, on what basis is it accepted? Authority?

Fnord wrote:
"Scientific Method" is a set of evolving principles and self-correcting procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge

But that definition isn’t set in stone, to use your words?


Fnord wrote:
involving (1) the recognition and formulation of a problem,

How does one recognize and formulate a problem?

Fnord wrote:
(2) the collection of data through observation and experiment,

Observation using what? The senses?

Fnord wrote:
and (3) the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

Sure. But how do you formulate and test The Method? Is the Method itself to be held to a lower standard than what it tests? If not, how do you combat the problem of circular reasoning when you apply the Method or attributes of the Method to Itself?

Fnord wrote:
I see neither confluence nor conflation between these two concepts. The former is static ("Carved In Stone")


Fnord wrote:
and the latter is dynamic ("Ever-Changing").

Is THAT dynamic? Or is this not simply another carved-in-stone rule, i.e. dogma?

Fnord wrote:
Your assertion fails on first principles.

What assertion, exactly? Are you making a strawman argument? Don’t forget, I’m not the one who has a problem with accepting the scientific method.



Erewhon
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03 Oct 2019, 2:02 am

Maybe people think Geoge Carlin is funny in this video, i agree its funny. But, because its funny it doesnt mean its not true what he say.



Jono
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03 Oct 2019, 2:23 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
I've read a lot on this forum about how Christianity fits perfetly well with having Aspergers.

But I don't understand why. Religion is all about conforming to a set of ideas regardless of your own original thoughts on the matter.

I've had a great interest in Christianity and early Judaism for the past 15 years, but my interest always centered around the true origins of the so-called "holy scripture", which is why I've found archaeologists like Israel Finkelstein and theologians like Robert Beckford the most trustworthy scholars of the old and new testament, respectively, compared to biased Christian archaeologists/theologians.

But the science of the bible contradicts what Christians believe in. They claim that Jesus literally rise from the dead and that the stories of the old testament are literally true.

I would have guessed aspies with a special interest in the Bible would be much more sceptical about it than NT's, due to the acquired knowledge of scientific research into the studies of the actual texts and origins.

Why am I wrong?


I don't know how Christianity fits in with having Asperger's more than any other religion. A lot of people on here are atheists.



Erewhon
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11 Oct 2019, 10:23 am

Atheist . . . :?:

I dont like the identity-term Atheist, because it implements a notbelieve a notidentity. In my view its not clever to call yourself a atheist. We call a soccerplayer not a anti-tennisplayer, we call a soccerplayer a soccerplayer. You are what you are, you are not what you are not are.

The identity-term of humanist i like.

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Fnord
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11 Oct 2019, 10:33 am

"Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool." -- Voltaire (François-Marie Arouet; 1694-1778)

I have to wonder whether the scoundrel or the fool was the Aspie ... ?


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Erewhon
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10 Nov 2019, 7:16 am

If you love your life, and you love it that your family is alive, than its the best to dont celebrate religious holydays.
Statisticly shows that during Christmas you have the highest chance to get murderd, raped, victem of car accidents, liver damage, heart attack. Its not only during Christmas, im sure that other parts of the religion tree have there victems during there holydays.

:skull: "Its the most wonderfull time of the year" :skull:

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Persephone29
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10 Nov 2019, 7:47 am

For my personal understanding of God, I rely on my holy book of choice.

I do occasionally attend church, as long as they aren't dancing with rattlesnakes, I don't really care which denomination it is. I can embrace their specific way of respecting God for that hour.

I think it all boils down to desire. If a person desires to know God, for the sake of knowing God, they will. If they desire to find him for the sake of arguing whether or not he's real, they shouldn't waste their time.


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FletcherArrow
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10 Nov 2019, 8:06 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
I've read a lot on this forum about how Christianity fits perfetly well with having Aspergers.

But I don't understand why. Religion is all about conforming to a set of ideas regardless of your own original thoughts on the matter.

I've had a great interest in Christianity and early Judaism for the past 15 years, but my interest always centered around the true origins of the so-called "holy scripture", which is why I've found archaeologists like Israel Finkelstein and theologians like Robert Beckford the most trustworthy scholars of the old and new testament, respectively, compared to biased Christian archaeologists/theologians.

But the science of the bible contradicts what Christians believe in. They claim that Jesus literally rise from the dead and that the stories of the old testament are literally true.

I would have guessed aspies with a special interest in the Bible would be much more sceptical about it than NT's, due to the acquired knowledge of scientific research into the studies of the actual texts and origins.

Why am I wrong?


Given that many Aspies seek factual truth and cannot tolerate lying, I cannot see how Christianity could appeal to anyone with Asperger's. Stoicism, Unitarian Universalism, Humanism, Atheism, Agnosticism, and perhaps Buddhism seem like religions/philosophical systems which better complement the way we/Aspies think.



AngelRho
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10 Nov 2019, 8:09 am

Persephone29 wrote:
For my personal understanding of God, I rely on my holy book of choice.

I do occasionally attend church, as long as they aren't dancing with rattlesnakes, I don't really care which denomination it is. I can embrace their specific way of respecting God for that hour.

I think it all boils down to desire. If a person desires to know God, for the sake of knowing God, they will. If they desire to find him for the sake of arguing whether or not he's real, they shouldn't waste their time.

I like you. :heart:

The question of God/no-God is going to be resolved before you walk through the door. Lee Strobel was an atheist who started attending church because of his newly-converted, silly wife. His plan was to use an investigative reporting tack to dismantle all the God crap. After giving it an actual, honest, unbiased (or closer to unbiased) look, he concluded Jesus had to be the Messiah and converted. My opinion is Strobel already knew what he was looking for and was open to the risk he might change his mind. If you’re mind is already made up to the point going to church is combative by default, you’re not going to pick up any truth from it.

The conflicts I have with church are not a matter of who God/Jesus are, but rather the strength of the message being taught relative to what God intended.



AngelRho
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10 Nov 2019, 8:21 am

FletcherArrow wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
I've read a lot on this forum about how Christianity fits perfetly well with having Aspergers.

But I don't understand why. Religion is all about conforming to a set of ideas regardless of your own original thoughts on the matter.

I've had a great interest in Christianity and early Judaism for the past 15 years, but my interest always centered around the true origins of the so-called "holy scripture", which is why I've found archaeologists like Israel Finkelstein and theologians like Robert Beckford the most trustworthy scholars of the old and new testament, respectively, compared to biased Christian archaeologists/theologians.

But the science of the bible contradicts what Christians believe in. They claim that Jesus literally rise from the dead and that the stories of the old testament are literally true.

I would have guessed aspies with a special interest in the Bible would be much more sceptical about it than NT's, due to the acquired knowledge of scientific research into the studies of the actual texts and origins.

Why am I wrong?


Given that many Aspies seek factual truth and cannot tolerate lying, I cannot see how Christianity could appeal to anyone with Asperger's. Stoicism, Unitarian Universalism, Humanism, Atheism, Agnosticism, and perhaps Buddhism seem like religions/philosophical systems which better complement the way we/Aspies think.

The OP makes entirely too many assumptions about Christianity.

My personal religion is my own sort of Christian egoism. I admit Ayn Rand as perhaps my biggest secular influence, as well as a number of elements from self-esteem psychology. I find those things to actually be CONSISTENT with the Bible, so I tend to see the gospels through an objective lens.

Ayn Rand falls short on epistemology, though, which is why her views on God are all wrong. Her views on objective reality and the wishful thinking/altruism dichotomy in RELIGION are dead on. But I’m not satisfied that she’s successfully answered the question of how we know anything. It ALWAYS boils down to faith. ALWAYS, no exaggeration. I found Rand’s philosophy to be presuppositional in nature, so I started reading up on Cornelius Van Til. If Christianity is the only philosophy that makes sense, it’s everyone else who bears a burden of proof. What you find is that evidence arguments fall far short of proving anything, so what you’re left with is faith.



Persephone29
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10 Nov 2019, 9:37 am

Who taught the first birds to migrate?
Who taught the first whales to travel to mating and breeding grounds?
No one, yet they knew.
A compass will point North because of a magnet, where's the magnet? I can't see the magnetic lines of the earth, do they exist? Why do they exist? Is it because of science? What is science but a study of something most people will never see, but believe exists because someone else claims to have conducted experiments with a few interested others and wrote a paper on it.

I won't argue the existence of God. It's a personal journey. What I will argue is what exactly is fact? Fact for the bird is not fact for my species, yet I cannot deny that birds will freeze to death if they don't head South when it gets cold. The magnetic lines exist for birds with no science involved. If a human did that, we would call it a pilgrimage; something spiritual. Do birds know why they migrate? Do they envision themselves frozen to a branch and say, "Ooh, I need to migrate." I don't believe they do, because what point of reference would they have?

I believe people think too much when it comes to God. And with great wisdom comes great suffering...

There is something inside of me that pulls me toward a spiritual magnetic line. But, I have to follow it.


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10 Nov 2019, 9:51 am

I haven't read this whole thread, but I will say a couple of things anyway.

a.) Religion is not the same as believing in God. Religion is unquestioning acceptance of somebody else's authority on what to believe ABOUT God, or other aspects of religion. I.e. dogma.
b.) I can see some reason to believe there is a God although I would not presume to say what God's true nature is or what "He" thinks humans should or shouldn't do. For this reason, I believe I can claim to have no religion in practice, although officially I am a convert to Reform Judaism (which seems to be less and less of a thing nowadays).
c.) I was never able to unquestioningly believe anything without some sort of rational explanation. Also to hold such beliefs because someone in authority or "the group" holds them. To me this seems very normal for someone with AS so I am genuinely perplexed that some many members of this site are religious. But I have learned to not question such things.


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15 Nov 2019, 11:38 am

The ritual religious slaughter of animals without anesthesia. :cry:

I am surprised that no-one has had it yet, with which some religions have a gruesome way of slaughtering.
Centuries ago, in the days when there was no electricity, people could not slaughter without anesthesia.
Anesthesia in the sense of a strong power surge, so that animals hurt as shortly as possible
would suffer. With the anesthesia of current the consciousness is shorter and less painful than when an animal slowly dies blood. I think it is scandalous that ritual slaughter is still allowed in most countries in Europe. If the dogmas and doctrines of your religion are more important that the welfare of animals then you are a bit sick in your head. I can only talk about how things are going in Western Europe. In the video below the famous Temple Gradin is also mentioned. Fortunately, she rejects abuses in the video. The man in the Peta video says that he rejects the wrongdoing, but whether he rejects slaughtering the animals without anesthesia is not clear. He indicates that he has now become a vegetarian. As long as the laws allow it without anesthesia you will continue to keep these abuses.



naturalplastic
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15 Nov 2019, 12:09 pm

The original poster never returned to the thread he started.



thinkinginpictures
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15 Nov 2019, 2:37 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
Who taught the first birds to migrate?
Who taught the first whales to travel to mating and breeding grounds?
No one, yet they knew.
A compass will point North because of a magnet, where's the magnet? I can't see the magnetic lines of the earth, do they exist? Why do they exist? Is it because of science? What is science but a study of something most people will never see, but believe exists because someone else claims to have conducted experiments with a few interested others and wrote a paper on it.

I won't argue the existence of God. It's a personal journey. What I will argue is what exactly is fact? Fact for the bird is not fact for my species, yet I cannot deny that birds will freeze to death if they don't head South when it gets cold. The magnetic lines exist for birds with no science involved. If a human did that, we would call it a pilgrimage; something spiritual. Do birds know why they migrate? Do they envision themselves frozen to a branch and say, "Ooh, I need to migrate." I don't believe they do, because what point of reference would they have?

I believe people think too much when it comes to God. And with great wisdom comes great suffering...

There is something inside of me that pulls me toward a spiritual magnetic line. But, I have to follow it.


This may be the answer to the bird-migration question:
https://physicsworld.com/a/birds-measur ... coherence/

Anyway, just because YOU don't know how science works certainly does not imply "god".

It means you lack a basic understanding of science and what a hypothesis is, what a theory is and what the scientific method is.

Stupid people always says "it is just a theory". They are stupid, because they don't even know what the word "theory" means. They think it is just some fancy word for "I think, I believe that is how X works".

It's not.

Please note I'm not saying "you" are stupid. i'm only referring to the creationist nuts I've encountered.

Here's a link for starters:
https://www.britannica.com/science/scientific-theory

As for your "spiritual magnetic line" science has proven that this is a side-effect of natural selection.
Apes are known to have rituals. It's a basic survival strategy.

Think of it kind of like this:

Even though there is no afterlife, the belief in the afterlife may put a restrain on yourself and group bonding. This increases the chances of survival for the group as a whole, and hence you're more likely to survive as an individual, because of simple statistics telling that most members of the group have better chances of survival.

In other words, "god" can be explained using science. There's nothing "mystical" about the belief in the supernatural.